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Old 01-08-2012, 06:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
A 2 or 3 year old is definitely old enough to begin to understand other people's feelings, OUCH pulling her hair hurt her. Look at her face, how does she look like it feels. As well as remedy and amends, how can you help her feel better?
Sure, THAT time when you tell them but tomorrow, no, they might think it is different tomorrow so they will try it again...you just never know. THAT is how a 2 or 3 year old thinks. If it doesn't hurt them, it doesn't hurt. They aren't selfish or mean kids, their brains just are not developed enough to understand empathy. This is the age that they start coming around on empathy though so some younger kids get it but most do not.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:47 PM
 
11,226 posts, read 9,310,719 times
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Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
I think the one thing that helped me the most as a parent was a child psychology class I took in college. It helped me understand WHY kids do what they do and how kids at various ages think. The ponytail example is perfect, he didn't pull her hair to be mean, he did it to see what would happen. Cause and effect are a HUGE development stage at that age and that is why kids do silly things----remember back when your child had to find the smallest space to squeeze through...that was testing personal/physical boundries--do I fit through here??
This is where the "parental attitude" kind of comes in. If you were brought, as I was, to think of kids misbehavior making them "naughty" or "bad" then it will be hard to thing in these terms.


Quote:
Another thing we have done is not make rules just to have rules so we can say we are fantastic parents because we have all these rules. Our rules are very simple, be responsible for your self and your actions.
I agree with this. One area in a parent mind wind up having to punish is if they over control their kids actions and choices. If you are controlling their choices, there will be more misbehavior to have to deliver consequences on.

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That pretty much sums everything up for us. If you do something you are not supposed to do, you will get into trouble and then follow through. Our kids are teenagers and are pretty easy kids because of this. We expect them to behave and they do. We don't parent thinking they will get into trouble, because if you do, they will.
Oh one component I forgot to mention that you just reminded me of. Mom and Dad mean what they say and say what they mean. If I say to drive in a car safely, you have to wear you seat belt, that does not mean only when it is convenient for Mom to enforce the limit. It is EVEY SINGLE TIME. If they know limits that are set are firm, they need to do fewer bits of limit testing to know that Mom means what she says and says what she means.

In the period of transitioning to my new found positive parenting from my previous punitive style, I wound up having to enforce some pretty stupid decisions. I had to learn to say please let me have a second to process this decision.


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When parents come here and want computer programs to watch their child on the computer, for example, I ask why--did they do something that they should not and usually they say no. Well, you are sending the message that you ASSUME your child is going to get into trouble so they think, what the heck, I will do it anyway.
Yes. This. My son asked my for a coke today. It was a special occasion. I said sure. He had been with my mother all day. Then I said wait have you already had coke today? He said yes. A few minutes my Mom told me he had already had coke. I said I know, I asked him. And she said, and he told you? Of COURSE he told me. Why the heck would he lie about a coke?

Another thing we do is talk to the kids about character directly. About how Dad and I strive to have character and that they choose what kind of people they are going to be.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Sure, THAT time when you tell them but tomorrow, no, they might think it is different tomorrow so they will try it again...you just never know. THAT is how a 2 or 3 year old thinks. If it doesn't hurt them, it doesn't hurt. They aren't selfish or mean kids, their brains just are not developed enough to understand empathy.
That is just not true. There is not one 2 or 3yo in my daycare who could not understand how would you like it if someone hurt you to some degree. I DID have a couple of older kids like 4 and 5 who ... basically didn't care. They had been allowed to run wild. They needed to feel the discomfort of if you cannot play safely, you cannot be allowed to play. I had one little boy who had to shadow me. (I was a solitary provider, not one of many in a center.) I am cooking lunch and everyone else is playing. Sorry you have to sit with me. WHEN you can play safely, THEN you can resume playing with the others. Stubborn child spent many a fun time doing something massively boring with me, of sitting away from his friends with me between them and him. Pretty soon he knew S meant what she said and said what she meant. Mom and Dad would let him do whatever he pleased, but if he meant to play, he had to play safely like S says.


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This is the age that they start coming around on empathy though so some younger kids get it but most do not.
It takes time.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
2,352 posts, read 3,937,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
A 2 or 3 year old is definitely old enough to begin to understand other people's feelings, OUCH pulling her hair hurt her. Look at her face, how does she look like it feels. As well as remedy and amends, how can you help her feel better?
I agree - however, until they've gotten to a point where they DO understand it, and are able to act on that understanding, then being with them is key. Some 2-year-olds get it, some kids don't get it 'til they're much older. I know some parents who think, "Well, that's not working! I've told her 10 times that hurts her brother" so they punish or enforce consequences. It takes a lot of patience to give those reminders again and again, understanding the child will get it in time. Their OWN time.

In those cases, I wouldn't keep putting the kid in the same situation until they matured.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:46 AM
 
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Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
I agree - however, until they've gotten to a point where they DO understand it, and are able to act on that understanding, then being with them is key. Some 2-year-olds get it, some kids don't get it 'til they're much older. I know some parents who think, "Well, that's not working! I've told her 10 times that hurts her brother" so they punish or enforce consequences. It takes a lot of patience to give those reminders again and again, understanding the child will get it in time. Their OWN time.
BEING supervised is sort of the consequence. WHEN they get it, THEN they are responsible enough to play freely and unsupervised. I think people sometimes think that consequences have to be painful or uncomfortable to be motivating. I don't think that is the case at all.

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In those cases, I wouldn't keep putting the kid in the same situation until they matured.
At least scaffold by supervising.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Thanks for posting this. I have been following what you've been saying as you've been responding in other threads, and I find it rather enlightening, actually.

It's lead me to rethink a couple of things as far as disciplining our 4 year old. She's gotten into the habit of dawdling on preschool mornings and I've realized I've been continually nagging her to get dressed and get going or we're going to be late. Now I can continue doing that, or providing a punishment of some sort, but I'm thinking I'm just going to allow the natural consequence of her messing about to happen, which will be that she's late for school. She doesn't want to be late for school, but she has no real world experience in what that means.

So next week, if she does it again, I'm going to remind her she'll be late and then just let it happen. If we turn up in the middle of her morning meeting instead of on time, she'll actually get to experience the consequence of being late, and I'm pretty sure she won't do it again. I'm going to tell the preschool that's what I'm doing, so I'll have their cooperation.

I figure it's either that, or I'll be nagging her in the morning until she's 18.
Some mornings when I had to be at work, and I didn't have the luxury of just "allowing" my dd to dawdle and mess around to teach her the natural consequences (since I would have been late to work and would have been the one suffering some consequences) I told my dd if she took too long, I wouldn't have time to do her hair and she would have to go to school with it looking a mess. I never even had to follow through on that, because she definitely didn't want that to happen!

Now I just give her a time. At 8:20 we are leaving. However you look at 8:20 is how you will look at school. If you're still in PJ's, have one sock on, haven't brushed your teeth yet, I don't care. You're going to school. I'm not going to be late for work because you aren't ready, you'll be the one at school looking crazy. This works like a charm, and I never have to fuss and nag at her anymore.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:34 AM
 
11,226 posts, read 9,310,719 times
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Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
Some mornings when I had to be at work, and I didn't have the luxury of just "allowing" my dd to dawdle and mess around to teach her the natural consequences (since I would have been late to work and would have been the one suffering some consequences) I told my dd if she took too long, I wouldn't have time to do her hair and she would have to go to school with it looking a mess. I never even had to follow through on that, because she definitely didn't want that to happen!

Now I just give her a time. At 8:20 we are leaving. However you look at 8:20 is how you will look at school. If you're still in PJ's, have one sock on, haven't brushed your teeth yet, I don't care. You're going to school. I'm not going to be late for work because you aren't ready, you'll be the one at school looking crazy. This works like a charm, and I never have to fuss and nag at her anymore.

This is perfect. The natural consequence of not getting ready is that you aren't ready!
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:03 AM
 
9,064 posts, read 6,783,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
Some mornings when I had to be at work, and I didn't have the luxury of just "allowing" my dd to dawdle and mess around to teach her the natural consequences (since I would have been late to work and would have been the one suffering some consequences)
Yeah, I can see how that would be difficult if you had a schedule. Luckily, I can be a bit more flexible in that department.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
I told my dd if she took too long, I wouldn't have time to do her hair and she would have to go to school with it looking a mess. I never even had to follow through on that, because she definitely didn't want that to happen!
That sounds great, but my daughter's 4, she couldn't care less what she looks like. You should see the hair brushing rigmarole. I can't wait until she has a least a shred of actual vanity. She doesn't want to miss any school, however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnnaNomus View Post
Now I just give her a time. At 8:20 we are leaving. However you look at 8:20 is how you will look at school. If you're still in PJ's, have one sock on, haven't brushed your teeth yet, I don't care. You're going to school. I'm not going to be late for work because you aren't ready, you'll be the one at school looking crazy. This works like a charm, and I never have to fuss and nag at her anymore.
I'm glad you found something that worked for you. Good for you. Hopefully we can nip our problem in the bud early, and have the same type of success.

Good thing we're here to help each other out.
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:27 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,756,034 times
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Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
I agree - however, until they've gotten to a point where they DO understand it, and are able to act on that understanding, then being with them is key. Some 2-year-olds get it, some kids don't get it 'til they're much older. I know some parents who think, "Well, that's not working! I've told her 10 times that hurts her brother" so they punish or enforce consequences. It takes a lot of patience to give those reminders again and again, understanding the child will get it in time. Their OWN time.

In those cases, I wouldn't keep putting the kid in the same situation until they matured.
Why do you think consequences are negative when they are used to reinforce a positive and progressive discipline strategy? somebodynew laid out an example of how she handles that kind of situation with a direct consequence. If you can't behave appropriately, then you don't get to play with your friends. She used a logical/natural consequence to reinforce the behavior she expected.

I don't disagree with the macro concepts at all, just the seeming insistence on not calling consequences, consequences or not using them at all. CharlotteGal, are you serious that you NEVER use consequences or punishments with your kids? You honestly wait for them to self-realize what they are doing is wrong with simple coaching?
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I don't disagree with the macro concepts at all, just the seeming insistence on not calling consequences, consequences or not using them at all.
I don't know if you are referring to me. I never avoided the word consequences. I avoided the word punishment. That word tends to mind the meting of often unrelated, arbitrary consequences. Like spanking, removal of privileges...There is a very important difference between saying when you are responsible enough to enjoy a perivildege, then you can enjoy it vs you got in a fight with your sister so I am taking away your television.
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