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Old 01-10-2012, 03:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
It is a mistake to think that what is being presented ISN'T a highly disciplined environment. It is a common misunderstanding that the opposite of punitive discipline is a permissive one or a lack of one. That does not need to be the case.
Hmmm I'll have to chew on that a while.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:41 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
2,349 posts, read 2,402,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
But that is what is being presented by one poster - an extremely permissive environment with no discipline at all.
How do you mean discipline? What do you mean when you use that word?
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:45 PM
 
Location: here
17,035 posts, read 14,617,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
I must have worded that worse than I thought! I said, "The people we prefer to hang out with are unschoolers, or people who genuinely like their kids." *Most* "middle of the road" folks apparently, evidentially, visibly, like their kids.



It's really not what I want them to do; I try to step out of the way as much as possible. I am the ladder that helps them reach what they want to do. They would be very, very different people if I had constantly redirected them to what I wanted them to do. As I've grown as a parent, what they want IS what I want! Genuinely, honestly. (Maybe with some misgivings!) But I didn't redirect them to what I wanted. When needed, I redirected them to something safer, or a more appropriate venue, etc. but as often as possible, I support them in what they want.
That implies that the "rest of us" don't support our kids in what they want and direct them to do what "we" want. That's not it at all. For example, I have one son who is very artistic (thinking of the drawing on the walls scenario). He got an easel, paints, pens, paintbrushes, and paper for Christmas. I'm going to sign him up for an after school art class at the end of the month. I don't have an artistic bone in my body. I am encouraging him to do what he likes, not what I want him to do. I'm just doing it within reasonable boundaries. You paint on the paper at the easel, not on the walls.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:46 PM
 
Location: here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
How do you mean discipline? What do you mean when you use that word?
Maybe that's not the word you used. Punishment?
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:47 PM
Status: "God was not in Stalingrad." (set 5 days ago)
 
13,692 posts, read 17,689,416 times
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Quote:
Not really. My son was 6 & 7 when he attended school - he understood the rules and guidelines of being in school. Kids aren't idiots, or wild beasts. (most kids, anyway) At 4, it would have been a rude awakening; at 6, it was part of life. A part of life we both hated, so I brought him home to homeschool. Which, before you go off on how sheltered they must be - we are out in the world more than we're home. Dealing with all kinds of people and situations.
Ah, so he "hated" the structure and environment so the solution was to change the structure and environment. Given how he spent the first several years of his life, it's no wonder he "hated" the structure of school.

Your not really making a case when both of your children have spent their lives existing in an environment that you created for them that was based on allowing them to essentially do whatever they wanted to do. If they didn't enjoy it, didn't fit in, didn't want to, didn't like it, etc. they simply got removed and sent to do something they did want to do.

You then compounded that by essentially limiting your social world (as stated in your other post that I didn't quote) to being solely composed of people who shared your views and outlook.

Your children are "good and succesful" because you created an environment for them where they couldn't possibly be anything else.

Quote:
Which, again, is why I advocate connection, presence, and communication.
All admirable things, but not exclusive to your parenting style. The implication that because I do things differently it must mean that I am not connected, present and communicative is ridiculous.

Quote:
They DO see the difference! You don't know that, because you don't allow it in your home, would never allow it. I DID allow it, and they know the difference. A very, very young child? No, you're right, they wouldn't - but who puts a toddler in a room with paint and expects them to not paint?
I can put my kids, even when they were toddlers, in a room with paint and expect them not to paint if that is not what they were allowed to do. Why must we always mold the environment and acquiesce to the childs desires?

Quote:
Larger families than yours live this way, very successfully and happily, and have produced kids that live in the world successfully and happily, within the law, able to negotiate and thrive in public, etc. If you don't want to live this way - in joy, trust, partnership, no yelling, no punishing - then don't. But many, many families do, many with as many kids as you have, or more.
Why do you assume that there is no joy, trust and partnership in my home? There may be the occasional yelling and punishment, but my family is just as "good" as yours. The problem is, even if I allow you to have your parenting style and accept that it worked out great for your kids (even if I criticize or question it), you seem to want to insist that any method that is not yours is less and will result in failure. Perhaps a better way to put it would be that your family is somehow "better" because of how you raised them. To that I could only respond that your family is "better" because they have only ever been measured against themselves.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:47 PM
 
22,283 posts, read 13,135,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
I am the ladder that helps them reach what they want to do.
What happens when they have to do things they don't WANT to do? What happens if the rungs of the ladder break? (Meaning you aren't there to give them alternatives or redirect them.)
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:49 PM
 
Location: IL
12,175 posts, read 6,152,211 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
It's really not what I want them to do; I try to step out of the way as much as possible. I am the ladder that helps them reach what they want to do. They would be very, very different people if I had constantly redirected them to what I wanted them to do. As I've grown as a parent, what they want IS what I want! Genuinely, honestly. (Maybe with some misgivings!) But I didn't redirect them to what I wanted. When needed, I redirected them to something safer, or a more appropriate venue, etc. but as often as possible, I support them in what they want.
I guess it really depends on what you are talking about. My children want to do many hundreds of things in a day. Most of them are great, appropriate choices, and they do them, or I support them, or it's just what happens, or however you want to describe it. They do make a few choices that need to be redirected, or are unwise, or however you want to label it. What is the difference between that and what you do? I fail to see the difference, aside from semantics.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
2,349 posts, read 2,402,573 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305 View Post
That implies that the "rest of us" don't support our kids in what they want and direct them to do what "we" want. That's not it at all. For example, I have one son who is very artistic (thinking of the drawing on the walls scenario). He got an easel, paints, pens, paintbrushes, and paper for Christmas. I'm going to sign him up for an after school art class at the end of the month. I don't have an artistic bone in my body. I am encouraging him to do what he likes, not what I want him to do. I'm just doing it within reasonable boundaries. You paint on the paper at the easel, not on the walls.
How does me saying I support them imply that anyone else doesn't?

I was responding to Zimbo's post - "Whether you say yes as an answer to every question, and then redirect them to what you want them to do, or tell them no and redirect them to what you want them to do..."

Taken out of context, yes, I can see where you'd be coming from, but in the context of that exchange, there was no implication there.

"Reasonable boundaries" are different for every family.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:54 PM
 
22,283 posts, read 13,135,353 times
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Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
"Reasonable boundaries" are different for every family.
Thank you. Just what I was looking for. Exactly every family has different boundaries for what is acceptable behavior by their children.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:55 PM
 
Location: here
17,035 posts, read 14,617,681 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post
How does me saying I support them imply that anyone else doesn't?

I was responding to Zimbo's post - "Whether you say yes as an answer to every question, and then redirect them to what you want them to do, or tell them no and redirect them to what you want them to do..."

Taken out of context, yes, I can see where you'd be coming from, but in the context of that exchange, there was no implication there.

"Reasonable boundaries" are different for every family.
Sorry if I took it out of context. But we're talking about the differences between your permissive parenting style and a more structured style. I took it to mean that having structure and rules somehow meant stifling their individuality or steering them toward what the parent wants not what the child wants. Sorry if I misunderstood.
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