U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-06-2012, 12:03 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 3,783,553 times
Reputation: 9551
Default components of a discipline strategy

I am going to try to summarize my thoughts on a discipline strategy and what it includes. I think many people would agree that these things are good but don't consider them a part of a discipline strategy. I think that they are CRITICAL to an effective discipline strategy

Parental attitude:
An attitude of questioning WHY did my kid do what he did is a necessary component. The vast majority of misbehavior is a mistake. We all make those. A 2yo little boy pulls on his neighbor's pony tail. Why did he do that? Because he is bad? No. He has NO IDEA that that is going to hurt her. All he knows is that she has that, and he doesn't. And he wonders what it feels like. And is it anchored to her head.

If your attitude is that he is bad, you might slap his hand and sternly say NO. He looks around in bewilderment as to what just happened, gets his feelings hurt. Yah he connects that it is related to the hair.

But if you realize he is just exploring his world, you can give him the info he needs. "We don't pull hair; it hurts. Look at her face. How does she look like she feels? How do you think you can help her feel better? Oh you don't know? How about you ask her?"

Anyway I could go on for about another 8 pages. But let's start with this.

Most of the time kids WANT to do what is right and good. They LIKE the positive attention that they get from it more than the negative attention of misbehaving.

Sometimes they do just want what they want, and that is when we get into

Consequences: Should be natural when possible, logical at the least. We have spoken a lot about this. We will leave it for now.

Self confidence/esteem: Their feeling of self worth is critical to self control and motivation. They need to understand that their worth, their value is based on simply being. Mom loves me no matter what. This does not equate with no matter what you do it's sunshine and light and your poo doesn't stink. But they need to have their self worth NOT yoyoing up and down with each success or failure. They can handle mistakes if they don't relay on accomplishment and lack of mistake for the esteem.

Having a healthy self esteem is directly related to motivation to do right.

Problem solving: They need to have the skill to solve problem as well as the sense of being competent to do so. A good deal of misbehavior comes from not knowing how to solve conflict. I had it first, no I did. If they no GOOD ways to resolve conflict, they can avoid misbehavior in the first place and be rerouted to problem solving when misbehavior occurs.

Empowered to decide: A child needs to be part of decisions that impact them. There are some things that they cannot decide. They cannot decide not to contribute to household chores, for instance. But who does which chore is open for discussion. When they are empowered to make decisions that impact them, they have a sense of ownership of the rules and reduce the resistance to them.

Parents need to know how to avoid throwing up barriers to cooperation: There are so many fights that we fight that we don't have to. Picture this. You walk into work. Your boss says to you, "Get that report on my desk right now!" Do you feel like saying, Yes Sir I am gonna bust hump to get that report to you. No you feel like telling him to stick it where the sun don't shine. Yet for some reason we think it is ok to bark orders at kids.

I remember an example from a super market. A preschooler asked Dad for green grapes. They were out of green grapes. No son, they are out. But I want them. I told you, they don't have any. Repeat this for six or seven times with escalating frustration on both sides until the kid is tantruming, Dad whacks his bottom and they leave.

Could have been oh wow you sound like you really want grapes. I wish they had them. Heck I wish the whole store was made of grapes. I wish the whole town was made of grapes. Want strawberries instead?

For example.

Ok I could go on ... there is more. But there it is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-06-2012, 01:31 PM
 
13,569 posts, read 16,431,255 times
Reputation: 11638
I don't disagree with anything you said, but we are still left with what to do when our confident, empowered, little problem solvers choose to make the wrong decision for the purpose of testing boundaries which is a very natural thing for kids to do.

All of the above can go a long way to minimizing the boundary testing and the chance that they will engage in negative actions for the shear enjoyment of engaging in negative actions, but we will always have to have consequence as part of the strategy to reinforce what the boundaries are and dissuade them from making negative choices.

Your scenarios:

The boy pulls the hair of the girl in front of him and we go through the steps you outlined. The next day he does it again. He is boundary testing. He knows it hurts her and it engenders a reaction, but he is kind of amused by it. We now need to introduce consequence for the action while reinforcing the other aspects that you described.

The kid who wants grapes may or may not be distracted from wanting grapes by dads little story about wishing the whole store was made of grapes and wants nothing to do with strawberries. Dad is then left back at square one with a kid wanting grapes but he did do a valiant job of trying to diffuse the situation. If the kid is simply stuck on the fact that they want grapes and nothing but a grape will do the parent is now left with a choice: Either the parent ends their task of going to the store and surrendering control to the child (who even though they aren't getting what they want realizes that they can control the situation) or the parent can introduce a consequence if the negative action escalates further.

Again, I do not disagree with anything you are saying about a positive reinforcement based discipline strategy, I just want you to acknowledge the fact that punishment/consequence is in fact a key part of that. Unless you have the reincarnation of Ghandi or Mother Theresa you're going to need to punish your kid for testing boundaries and engaging in negative behavior for the joy of doing it. You can however, by using the approaches you outlined above may minimize the times its necessary to go down that road.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2012, 01:41 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 3,783,553 times
Reputation: 9551
I go into that extensively in the other thread which is why I did not bother to here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2012, 01:50 PM
 
13,569 posts, read 16,431,255 times
Reputation: 11638
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I go into that extensively in the other thread which is why I did not bother to here.
I think it has a place in this discussion as well. You laid out a very concise and effective discipline plan, but what you outlined isn't the hard part, at least if you are a remotely decent parent. The hard part is what to do when the above doesn't work. Where is the line and what do I do when it is crossed? What if my 2 year old doesn't empathize that the girl whose pony tail he is pulling on is hurt by his actions? That's the meat and potatos of effective discipline strategies and where people start to fall apart and differ in their opinions.

You've laid out the antithesis to "smack them upside their head whenever they **** you off", but you haven't told me or anyone else what to do when that line is crossed and you need to have a consequence. At least I view it as progress that you admit that consequences are part of an effective discipline strategy even one that is based on positive reinforcement, fostering self-realization and empathy.

What kinds of consequences do you use with your children?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2012, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
2,349 posts, read 2,273,669 times
Reputation: 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I think it has a place in this discussion as well. You laid out a very concise and effective discipline plan, but what you outlined isn't the hard part, at least if you are a remotely decent parent. The hard part is what to do when the above doesn't work. Where is the line and what do I do when it is crossed? What if my 2 year old doesn't empathize that the girl whose pony tail he is pulling on is hurt by his actions? That's the meat and potatos of effective discipline strategies and where people start to fall apart and differ in their opinions.

You've laid out the antithesis to "smack them upside their head whenever they **** you off", but you haven't told me or anyone else what to do when that line is crossed and you need to have a consequence. At least I view it as progress that you admit that consequences are part of an effective discipline strategy even one that is based on positive reinforcement, fostering self-realization and empathy.

What kinds of consequences do you use with your children?
For me, if I had a kid who was likely to pull hair, I'd be right there with him, preventing the hair-pulling and helping him navigate the situation until he grew old enough to do so himself. If I saw him start to grab the hair, I'd distract him. If he was grabbing the hair because he was frustrated, I'd head off the frustration as soon as I saw it happening.

I don't expect a two or three year old to be able to be goaded, prodded, punished, or consequenced into "good" behavior. Until they have the social knowledge and self-control necessary, they need a partner and guide.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2012, 05:30 AM
 
5,877 posts, read 2,799,930 times
Reputation: 6966
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I am going to try to summarize my thoughts on a discipline strategy and what it includes. I think many people would agree that these things are good but don't consider them a part of a discipline strategy. I think that they are CRITICAL to an effective discipline strategy

Parental attitude:
An attitude of questioning WHY did my kid do what he did is a necessary component. The vast majority of misbehavior is a mistake. We all make those. A 2yo little boy pulls on his neighbor's pony tail. Why did he do that? Because he is bad? No. He has NO IDEA that that is going to hurt her. All he knows is that she has that, and he doesn't. And he wonders what it feels like. And is it anchored to her head.

If your attitude is that he is bad, you might slap his hand and sternly say NO. He looks around in bewilderment as to what just happened, gets his feelings hurt. Yah he connects that it is related to the hair.

But if you realize he is just exploring his world, you can give him the info he needs. "We don't pull hair; it hurts. Look at her face. How does she look like she feels? How do you think you can help her feel better? Oh you don't know? How about you ask her?"

Anyway I could go on for about another 8 pages. But let's start with this.

Most of the time kids WANT to do what is right and good. They LIKE the positive attention that they get from it more than the negative attention of misbehaving.

Sometimes they do just want what they want, and that is when we get into

Consequences: Should be natural when possible, logical at the least. We have spoken a lot about this. We will leave it for now.

Self confidence/esteem: Their feeling of self worth is critical to self control and motivation. They need to understand that their worth, their value is based on simply being. Mom loves me no matter what. This does not equate with no matter what you do it's sunshine and light and your poo doesn't stink. But they need to have their self worth NOT yoyoing up and down with each success or failure. They can handle mistakes if they don't relay on accomplishment and lack of mistake for the esteem.

Having a healthy self esteem is directly related to motivation to do right.

Problem solving: They need to have the skill to solve problem as well as the sense of being competent to do so. A good deal of misbehavior comes from not knowing how to solve conflict. I had it first, no I did. If they no GOOD ways to resolve conflict, they can avoid misbehavior in the first place and be rerouted to problem solving when misbehavior occurs.

Empowered to decide: A child needs to be part of decisions that impact them. There are some things that they cannot decide. They cannot decide not to contribute to household chores, for instance. But who does which chore is open for discussion. When they are empowered to make decisions that impact them, they have a sense of ownership of the rules and reduce the resistance to them.

Parents need to know how to avoid throwing up barriers to cooperation: There are so many fights that we fight that we don't have to. Picture this. You walk into work. Your boss says to you, "Get that report on my desk right now!" Do you feel like saying, Yes Sir I am gonna bust hump to get that report to you. No you feel like telling him to stick it where the sun don't shine. Yet for some reason we think it is ok to bark orders at kids.

I remember an example from a super market. A preschooler asked Dad for green grapes. They were out of green grapes. No son, they are out. But I want them. I told you, they don't have any. Repeat this for six or seven times with escalating frustration on both sides until the kid is tantruming, Dad whacks his bottom and they leave.

Could have been oh wow you sound like you really want grapes. I wish they had them. Heck I wish the whole store was made of grapes. I wish the whole town was made of grapes. Want strawberries instead?

For example.

Ok I could go on ... there is more. But there it is.
Thanks for posting this. I have been following what you've been saying as you've been responding in other threads, and I find it rather enlightening, actually.

It's lead me to rethink a couple of things as far as disciplining our 4 year old. She's gotten into the habit of dawdling on preschool mornings and I've realized I've been continually nagging her to get dressed and get going or we're going to be late. Now I can continue doing that, or providing a punishment of some sort, but I'm thinking I'm just going to allow the natural consequence of her messing about to happen, which will be that she's late for school. She doesn't want to be late for school, but she has no real world experience in what that means.

So next week, if she does it again, I'm going to remind her she'll be late and then just let it happen. If we turn up in the middle of her morning meeting instead of on time, she'll actually get to experience the consequence of being late, and I'm pretty sure she won't do it again. I'm going to tell the preschool that's what I'm doing, so I'll have their cooperation.

I figure it's either that, or I'll be nagging her in the morning until she's 18.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2012, 09:57 AM
 
20,798 posts, read 31,366,486 times
Reputation: 9864
I think the one thing that helped me the most as a parent was a child psychology class I took in college. It helped me understand WHY kids do what they do and how kids at various ages think. The ponytail example is perfect, he didn't pull her hair to be mean, he did it to see what would happen. Cause and effect are a HUGE development stage at that age and that is why kids do silly things----remember back when your child had to find the smallest space to squeeze through...that was testing personal/physical boundries--do I fit through here??

Another thing we have done is not make rules just to have rules so we can say we are fantastic parents because we have all these rules. Our rules are very simple, be responsible for your self and your actions. That pretty much sums everything up for us. If you do something you are not supposed to do, you will get into trouble and then follow through. Our kids are teenagers and are pretty easy kids because of this. We expect them to behave and they do. We don't parent thinking they will get into trouble, because if you do, they will.

When parents come here and want computer programs to watch their child on the computer, for example, I ask why--did they do something that they should not and usually they say no. Well, you are sending the message that you ASSUME your child is going to get into trouble so they think, what the heck, I will do it anyway.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-07-2012, 10:00 AM
 
20,798 posts, read 31,366,486 times
Reputation: 9864
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Thanks for posting this. I have been following what you've been saying as you've been responding in other threads, and I find it rather enlightening, actually.

It's lead me to rethink a couple of things as far as disciplining our 4 year old. She's gotten into the habit of dawdling on preschool mornings and I've realized I've been continually nagging her to get dressed and get going or we're going to be late. Now I can continue doing that, or providing a punishment of some sort, but I'm thinking I'm just going to allow the natural consequence of her messing about to happen, which will be that she's late for school. She doesn't want to be late for school, but she has no real world experience in what that means.

So next week, if she does it again, I'm going to remind her she'll be late and then just let it happen. If we turn up in the middle of her morning meeting instead of on time, she'll actually get to experience the consequence of being late, and I'm pretty sure she won't do it again. I'm going to tell the preschool that's what I'm doing, so I'll have their cooperation.

I figure it's either that, or I'll be nagging her in the morning until she's 18.
When our oldest was in kindergarten, we had this issue. He just kept dragging and dragging. I told him that if he is late for the bus, he will walk to school. So, I just started letting him go at his own pace and he was at least 15 minutes late for the bus. He went to the bus stop thinking that he was the first one there, waited for a while, then came back home and sheepishly said "I missed the bus". While he was waiting for the bus I called the school and let them know what happened and let them know what I was doing about it. I made him walk the mile and a half to school (I followed him in the car though). When we got to school I took him into the office to sign him in and the principal was there waiting to shake my hand. They sent him off to class and the office gave me a "standing ovation". I laughed but they were happy I made HIM take responsibility for being late. He never missed a bus again.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2012, 05:37 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 3,783,553 times
Reputation: 9551
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlotteGal View Post

I don't expect a two or three year old to be able to be goaded, prodded, punished, or consequenced into "good" behavior. Until they have the social knowledge and self-control necessary, they need a partner and guide.
A 2 or 3 year old is definitely old enough to begin to understand other people's feelings, OUCH pulling her hair hurt her. Look at her face, how does she look like it feels. As well as remedy and amends, how can you help her feel better?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-08-2012, 05:39 PM
 
8,012 posts, read 3,783,553 times
Reputation: 9551
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Thanks for posting this. I have been following what you've been saying as you've been responding in other threads, and I find it rather enlightening, actually.

It's lead me to rethink a couple of things as far as disciplining our 4 year old. She's gotten into the habit of dawdling on preschool mornings and I've realized I've been continually nagging her to get dressed and get going or we're going to be late. Now I can continue doing that, or providing a punishment of some sort, but I'm thinking I'm just going to allow the natural consequence of her messing about to happen, which will be that she's late for school. She doesn't want to be late for school, but she has no real world experience in what that means.
If late for school is not an option, a buddy of mine would put the clothes in a bag, and say ok it is time to leave. The half dressed kid has to finish dressing at preschool. This is a much easier battle to fight in preschool, clearly.

Quote:
So next week, if she does it again, I'm going to remind her she'll be late and then just let it happen. If we turn up in the middle of her morning meeting instead of on time, she'll actually get to experience the consequence of being late, and I'm pretty sure she won't do it again. I'm going to tell the preschool that's what I'm doing, so I'll have their cooperation.

I figure it's either that, or I'll be nagging her in the morning until she's 18.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top