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Old 01-17-2012, 07:33 PM
 
15,745 posts, read 13,176,204 times
Reputation: 19636

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Thanks for the reply.

First of all, you seem to miss or ignore the intent of the anecdote. Nowhere did I ever mention it as proof. I mention it simply as an example of a general overall picture.

As far as ignoring statistic, no I am not. However, statistics CAN be missinterpreted.

Here is where we can go back and forth citing stats. I know I can find stats that seem to support my view and you can do the same. What happens, we end up in a constant back and forth with stats.

Have you ever read somewhere a claim that the fact that abortion was legalized was a factor for crime to go down? How about that one!
This is why it is important to UNDERSTAND statistics. Crime rate absolutely correlates with abortion, but correlation is not causation.

Sort of key.

But the correlation is a fact the EXACT SAME WAY the violent crime rate has decreased is a FACT. No INTERPRETING necessary.

Quote:
The claims that police departments are doing a better job is not as solid as claimed. Parenting? The same. Actually, some research seem to say that how someone turns out is 50/50 between nurture and nature.
Did you know that police departments at times do arrange figures so crime looks higher and get funding for their deparments? They also have done the opposite for the very same reason!!
What are you even talking about? I cited the federal justice department, not an individual police department.

Second, where did I make ANY claims about WHY the crime rate went down? Nowhere. Because it is impossible to know but denying that it went down is just plain ignorance.

Quote:
Observation is a valid way to come up with conclusions also. Granted to some degree. Often observation has proven correct by stats also.
No it isn't. Personal anecdotes are NEVER accepted in real science. Seriously, where do you come up with this?

And try to remember you first claimed that it wasn't just your observations but that of all the people you know, so now on top of anecdotes we have hearsay.

Quote:
I am not saying stats are worthless. They can be indicators and they can tools we can compare with observation also.
Stats make hearsay and anecdotes WORTHLESS when discuss things like CRIME RATE in general, and TEENAGE CRIME RATE in particular. Your anecdotes are MEANINGLESS compared to the actual FACTS.

Quote:
My observation is based on living in the 50s, talking with police officers that are now retired and were on duty during that era and how they tell me today's officers actually have it much tougher handling so many teens commiting much more serious crimes.
So what? Even if it were true its tiny, tiny sample size compared to that of the ENTIRE COUNTRY. How can you discount statistics in favor of anecdotes and be expected to be taken serious when you are talking about a sample size that is orders of magnitude smaller than the sample set that is from the department of justice????


Quote:
I do volunteer at local schools and see the behavior of kids today as compared to when I was a teen also.
So what? I am teacher, I am sure I see more teenage behavior than you do, and have the exact same number of anecdotes. Guess what my anecdotes do not matter at all either. For the exact same reason.

Quote:
I also volunteer as a Court Appointed Special Advocate (CASA) on behalf of neglected and abused children. So I see a lot of the family dynamic as compared to when I was a teen.
That is nice. Again, meaningless compared to the data set that is the ENTIRE COUNTRY.

Quote:
Also, I enlisted in '78 and retired in '10 (32 years). My peers that retired when I did also saw the difference in discipline when I enlisted and when I retired.
If you some how pretended that hearsay was even on the same level as an anecdote it DOESN"T MATTER. Every person you have met, and all of the people they have met, in your entire lifetime is a tiny fraction of the number of people in the country. Still too small a sample size to draw any sort of meaningful conclusion.

Quote:
It would be a sensible thing to tell me that in my town where I grew up my observation could be correct. Well, many of my Army peers came from just about every state in the Union and the perception is the same.
More hearsay and anecdotes. Why you think they matter more than federal mandated crime reporting I have no idea. At best it is tiny sample of people who used to be in the Army. Now it is not only a small sample size but it isn't even a RANDOM one.

Quote:
So I could be wrong as you say. Stats could be right but there are so many stats out there that do contradict each other on the subject. I have seen both claims supported by stats.
Fine, please post any statistic of a sample size similar to that of the department of justice on crime rates and we can call it a moot point. But since you haven't you should just admit you are WRONG and that despite your PERSONAL experiences, crime rate has decreased.

Quote:
With this in mind, I believe my observation which is supported by many that are as old as I am leads me to believe I am at least in the ballpark. Now, if any of you are as old as I am and made a different claim, I give more validity to you than those of you that have not lived at long enough to make the comparisons we are making between age groups and go by stats.
So now we go to a common logical fallacy, appeal to authority, and authority granted by age. Sorry but holds no water. Maybe you anecdotes are more meaningful than mine but they are not more meaningful than the data set of all the reported crime in the US.

Quote:
I can't help wondfering how much of your disgreement affects your objectivity because you may not want to accept the negativity of your generation, maybe you are raising kids today and you may not want to accept that either. I understand if that is the case also.
Another logical fallacy, ad hominem attacks. Since you cannot support your claim instead of admitting you are wrong, you attack me personally. I am not a teenager, haven't been for over 30 years. But I am a scientist and I completely understand statistics, both their uses and their limits.

Quote:
By me saying what I am saying on those kids today I am not labeling the whole generation as all lost and good for nothings. There are positives that I wish I had in my generation.
I simply say that in the overall picture the discipline is not as good as before and other certain attitudes that in my opinoin are detrimental to society as a whole. I know my generation has its share of negatives. Take care.
You have nothing to base that on beyond your own personal experience which you refuse to admit is limited. Sad.
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Old 01-17-2012, 07:37 PM
 
1,135 posts, read 1,983,442 times
Reputation: 1478
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
I think that is the difference. There was a time when parents didn't want to be like teenagers, they wanted to be the adults.

My sister was telling me about one of the mothers she knows - the mother actually gets drunk with her teen daughter and the daughter's friends, she likes to think of herself as fun and cool and young. And she does just like you pointed out -- dresses just like her daughter, tries to act like a sister sharing clothes with her, borrows the daughter's clothes.

Too many parents are afraid to ever say "no" to a child. They won't tell a 2 year old "no", they won't tell a 5 year old "no" and they won't tell a 14 year old "no". They let the child run things the whole time, too afraid to ever discipline or upset the child.
We have a lot of moms who want to be teenagers here, too. One mom in particular dresses very sexy in clothing that is inappropriate for her age (40s) and size (large).

She was at our elementary school concert last week and decided to walk into the aisle to take a photo of her child. Well, she was wearing low-cut yoga pants. They slid half-way down her tush revealing a shiny purple thong and a huge tattoo. She was oblivious and just kept clicking away for at least a minute as everyone seated near her stared and pointed. She's now known as "thong mom."
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 24,683,229 times
Reputation: 11309
Like I said, raging acceptance movement

Toddler's cuss word on 'Modern Family' draws ire - Yahoo! TV
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:33 AM
 
32,538 posts, read 29,333,321 times
Reputation: 32238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
Like I said, raging acceptance movement
Chamy, "Raging acceptance" would be if the writers and producers (and the network) DIDN'T censor Lily dropping the F bomb.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:36 AM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,725,457 times
Reputation: 11008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
Like I said, raging acceptance movement

Toddler's cuss word on 'Modern Family' draws ire - Yahoo! TV

Raging acceptance of what, exactly? That little kids will blurt out curse words at unexpected and highly inappropriate moments? That little kids repeat a curse word, having no idea what it means?

It happens, you know. On a quite regular basis. It's usually pretty funny, actually. Doesn't mean little kids are allowed to swear.

I like Robin Williams' take on it, where his kid is sitting in the backseat and starts repeating the F word after hearing him swearing at another motorist. Hysterical.
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Old 01-18-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,792,833 times
Reputation: 14677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
Like I said, raging acceptance movement

Toddler's cuss word on 'Modern Family' draws ire - Yahoo! TV
Most kids try it out at least once. That's why it's funny in shows like this, it happens, and we can all relate.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 24,683,229 times
Reputation: 11309
2 year old goes on national tv issuing an F-bomb, beeped like it gets beeped on Jersey Shore. And you've come to its defence. A Robin Williams rationalization, given that that man is a leftist equivalent/contemporary of someone like Hannity.

Everything is acceptable nowadays. That's EXACTLY what I am saying Nothing's taboo. Every option is on the table in the name of artistic progression and gets fed to the personal electronic tubes of every individual (especially young) in every home.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:33 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 34,981,619 times
Reputation: 42370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
Most kids try it out at least once. That's why it's funny in shows like this, it happens, and we can all relate.
My grandma loves to tell the story of four-year-old Julia, who got in trouble at school for saying a bad word, and who came to Gram's after school just dying to tell her what it was. I do not remember this event but everyone has had a long laugh about it.

My own daughter spent the weekend with my grandparents years ago, and we warned her beforehand not to say bad words. She, too, had gotten in trouble at school for saying a very bad word. Gram told me later (years later!) that in the car, my darling little daughter said very seriously, "Daddy told me not to say the ****you word, and I won't." She was about five. Of course this segued into the story of the word that her mother (me) had said so many years ago. Gram won't tell me what the word was, either.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:38 AM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,364,853 times
Reputation: 1944
My almost 3 year old called my husband stupid when we were taking her to the park. He was shocked and upset but I knew she couldn't possibly understand what it meant.

Still, I knew my husband wouldn't let it go. There was no way he was going to be at the park and let his child call him stupid in front of others.

So I asked her "why do you think he is stupid?" This is my husband at me.

"Daddy is stupid."

"Okay, if you think daddy is stupid, he is going to take you back home."

"No!"

"Do you think Daddy is stupid?"

"No."

She hasn't said it since.

Could it have happened at the park in front of others? Yes. I would have gone through the same process.

I don't tell her "hey, that is not nice!". Instead, we act but not before we allow her to make a different choice.
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Old 01-18-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 24,683,229 times
Reputation: 11309
And besides, TV isn't real life. It's a "promotional" tool. It's a propaganda device. And whatever you see on tv is NOT real. Somebody is scripting, directing and generating it. That's why history has shown that it's the most effective device in planting an idea in someone's mind and moulding it in such a way that it is found appealing (even a socially frowned upon, unappealing concept).

Thomas Nast showed the public the same politics which the people were bored about. But what made him appealing to the masses when they didn't like the details of the underlying? Becoz he drew cartoons. He erected a facade of a caricature. Something that appealed more than the underlying. Something which people could "relate" to.

The key word in propaganda is how people "relate" to something. Food for thought, folks
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