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Old 01-27-2012, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
Last time I checked, "nature vs. nurture" was synonymous with "genes vs. environment," with "nurture" referring not just to parenting variables but to all environmental influences that act on our genetic makeup. If you want to argue about the relative contribution of parental influence vs. peer or societal influence on behavior or outcomes, you are actually pitting different elements of nurture against each other. ETA: Referring to yourself as a small sample set is rather generous. More accurately, you're anecdotal evidence, just like the rest of us are, unless you're controlling for/intentionally manipulating variables in order to be a case study. Which would just be weird.
Well, I'm not talking about nature vs. nurture but, rather, the nurture assumption. That is the assumption that parents are the biggest influence on their children. I don't think we are. I think peers trump us by a mile. (I do agree, however, that society and peers fits with nuture if you're looking at nurture vs. nature.) There is no doubt that it's not nature causing the cycle of generations. It has to be parents, peers or society. It's not the result of having parents who belong to a particular generation because any generation of children is actually being raised by parents from multiple generations. That leaves peers and society. I'd go for both being major influences here.
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Old 01-27-2012, 01:02 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,251,791 times
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Religion is something I place into the concept of values. People of a similar society have similar morals, but they can have widely differing values. In the exact case of religion, it tends to embody the morality of the society that created it. This is why the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all contain similar "moral codes" as they were created by similar societies.
So what is a value? This is a cool topic.
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Old 01-27-2012, 01:05 PM
 
Location: here
24,477 posts, read 28,795,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Well, I'm not talking about nature vs. nurture but, rather, the nurture assumption. That is the assumption that parents are the biggest influence on their children. I don't think we are. I think peers trump us by a mile. (I do agree, however, that society and peers fits with nuture if you're looking at nurture vs. nature.) There is no doubt that it's not nature causing the cycle of generations. It has to be parents, peers or society. It's not the result of having parents who belong to a particular generation because any generation of children is actually being raised by parents from multiple generations. That leaves peers and society. I'd go for both being major influences here.
That would depend on the child and the age of the child. I don't agree that peers trump parents "by a mile". Even if they do for some kids, they don't for all kids. That just sounds like an excuse for a child that doesn't turn out like you want.
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Old 01-27-2012, 01:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
So what is a value? This is a cool topic.
I think it's interesting as well, but maybe better in another thread, or we risk pulling this one OT.

My short answer would be that values are basically the things that really matter to us individually. To put it another way, the ideas and beliefs that we hold special. In terms of religion it tends to not only reflect the general societies moral beliefs, but also codify a certain set of preferred values. The problem is when people start to blur the line and assume that their values are the same as morals, I see a distinction.

To take it a step further, morals end where values begin and values end where taste begins. For instance, society in general has no moral code regarding consumption of alcohol. The choice to drink or not to drink is essentially a value. Choosing what to drink is a matter of taste.

Some people assume that their choice of Scotch is akin to a "value" and can't imagine why anyone would like vodka. Those two people actually share a similar value, they just have different taste. Similarly, people who greatly value not consuming alcohol may see their choice in value as being akin to morality and therefore assume that people who drink are immoral. In reality, they are most likely no different morally and have just made different value decisions.
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Well, I'm not talking about nature vs. nurture but, rather, the nurture assumption. That is the assumption that parents are the biggest influence on their children. I don't think we are. I think peers trump us by a mile. (I do agree, however, that society and peers fits with nuture if you're looking at nurture vs. nature.) There is no doubt that it's not nature causing the cycle of generations. It has to be parents, peers or society. It's not the result of having parents who belong to a particular generation because any generation of children is actually being raised by parents from multiple generations. That leaves peers and society. I'd go for both being major influences here.
I think your situation may actually provide an interesting microcosm and peoples views overall are really based on the status of society and the interplay of that status when they were raised versus what they see going on today.

You were a Boomer and while you were being raised, I supposed in an earlier post that you were equally influenced by family and society as that was the case when Boomers were being raised.

Your first set of children were Gen-Xers and being raised at a time when there was low family influence, but high societal influence. Chances are these kids and their youth are the one you see as being most different from your own experience growing up.

Your second set of children were Millenials and being raised at a time of increasing family influence over children. Chances are these kids and their youth are the one you see as being different, yet more similar to your own experience growing up.

Even though you and the generation you were from remained constant, society was ever changing around you and your role and place within it. Hence your children became what they are. It would seem to give your argument weight, within the situation that existed when your children were being raised.

If we are to follow S&H, the Boomers and the generation that preceeded them, the Silents, were people raised with a high degree of family influence. These are also the same groups that look at Gen-X and even the Millenials as "the horrible youth of today". They aren't necessarily any better or worse statistically, what they are is less influenced by and concerned with family.

The interesting piece is the current generation still being born, the Homelanders. If the cycle holds true, this generation will be raised with a high degree of family influence and will be seen as more respectful, compliant and obedient then the generations that preceeded them. Same as the aging Silent generation, the ones who were children during the Depression and WW2 who were generally viewed as "good" children with a high degree of respect for their elders.

Part of this family influence can also be seen in divorce rates. Divorce rates are lowest during the High and then increase rapidly during an Awakening and an Unraveling. When the next Crisis comes around (we entered "crisis" in 2008) divorce rates peak and then begin to decrease. In fact, you can see this today, divorce rates are currently lower then they have been for many years.

90sman posted in the S&H thread some general societal observations during the cycles that were made by S&H and I am going to quote some of them here:

Quote:
Tolerance for riskiness:
High- low
Awakening-increasing
Unraveling- peaking
Crisis-falling

Families:
High- strong families
Awakening- weakening families
Unraveling- weak families
Crisis- Strengthening families.

Crime rates:
High-low
Awakening-rising
Unraveling- high
Crisis- falling

Mood of society:
High- conformist and cautious. Individuality is discouraged. Sense of community is strong.
Awakening- less conformist, increasingly individualized.
Unraveling- Individuality is flourishing.
Crisis- Society starts becoming increasingly conformist as sense of community begins to strengthen.
Think about this for a minute...

Boomers were raised during a High with low tolerance for risk, strong familes, low crime rates and a general conformist attitude with a strong community.

Gen-Xers were raised during an Awakening with increasing tolerance of risky behavior, weakening families, rising crime rates and a general less conformist, more individualistic attitude.

Millenials were rasied during an Unraveling with high tolerance for risk, very weak families, high crime rates and a strong sense of individuality.

Homelanders are being raised during a Crisis with decreasing tolerance of risk, strengthening families decreasing crime rates and increasing conformity and sense of community.

Not to belabor the point, but this next part bears a couple words...

There are two generations that hold influence at any particular time. The Midlife generation holds power and the Young Adults are the influence of culture. Think about this...

As young adults the Boomers went against the societal norms and attacked the GI Generation in power. This marked the end of the High and beginning of the Awakening.

As young adults the Gen-Xers continued the trend begun by Boomers taking it to extremes. This was the end of the Awakening and beginning of the Unravelling.

Millenials were raised during a time when Gen-X dominated the culture with their extreme pushing of what the Boomers began. The Millenials have responded to this "bottoming out" of cultural society by beginning to institute a culture that is more focused on family and community.

As Gen-X moves into power and the Millenials become the culture, the Homelanders will be raised during a time the Millenials are reinforcing the needs of family and community, the same things they tended to lack culturally while growing up.

As the Millenials take power, the Homelanders culture will happily espouse the High that the Millenials will build...until the next generation of "boomers" come along to start tearing it all down again. Part of this goes back to the concept of dominant and recessive generations.

Boomers were dominant and instituted a move away from the values they were raised with. Gen-X is recessive and took what the Boomers started and carried it to the nth. Millenials are dominant and will institute a move away from the cultural norms that prevailed when they were being raised. The Homelanders will be recessive and simply carry out what the Millenials started until the next dominant generation comes back and starts another major turning.
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:05 PM
 
4,830 posts, read 4,818,043 times
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Modern childhood is more pathetic & deprived in many ways than the childhood of 3rd world villagers, I know, my son is way more deprived of the livable environment than I was, more exactly, he's got none to speak of, he's a little prisoner to be bussed, uniformed and professionally organized & managed. He has no "trespassing is OK" space to explore, no community to relate, concept of spontaneous play without store bought paraphernalia is unknown to him. He's totally dependent, imprisoned and deprived of the things that defined childhood of countless generations of human children in the past.

Lack of public space, lack of livable communities, commodification of childhood, rise of the professional childhood management & "education", marketing images attacking childhood every second. I tell you, it's freaking brave, new & DEPRESSING world and childhood out there. And honestly I don't know what I can do about it? Buy more junk for him? Get more status anxious and terrorize poor guy with so called "education" so he could (supposedly) run the rat race more "successfully". That's what childhood has become - preparation for the rat race, it involves stuffing little minds with abstract (and useless in the "wild") knowledge and giving them an idea what makes a perfect corporate grunt destined for "upward mobility". Will it make up for him not having childhood to speak of? And guess what, since parents do NOT decide a squat about the rules of the rat race, their "authority" is undermined automatically.

Let's not just pretend that it the parents who do parenting in USA. As I said, it's not the parents who hold "hoops" their kids should jump through, it's not parents who define their kids goals and ideas about the surrounding world. Kids are raised by mass cult, TV and public education. Wage slaving parents are selling most of their waking up hours to the highest bidder, they have no time for kids. At best they just provide bunking space & breakfast for the kids in between school busings. It's NOT the parents who define kid's worldviews and attitudes to life etc. If you claim otherwise, great chances are that your parents took those "ideas" straight from TV screens. Kids are overwhelmed by the stream of advertisement & TV associating "happiness" & fulfillment with upper middle class settings and consumption patterns. If absentee parents don't deliver consumption patterns as seen on TV, it's "obvious" they made some bad choices in their lives, and losers are not the ones deserving respect.

Last edited by RememberMee; 01-27-2012 at 02:14 PM..
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Modern childhood is more pathetic & deprived in many ways than the childhood of 3rd world villagers (not in banana republics though), I know, my son is way more deprived of the livable environment than I was, more exactly, he's got none to speak of, he's a little prisoner to be bussed, uniformed and professionally organized & managed. He has no "trespassing is OK" space to explore, no community to relate, concept of spontaneous play without store bought paraphernalia is unknown to him. He's totally dependent, imprisoned and deprived of the things that defined childhood of countless generations of human children in the past.

Lack of public space, lack of livable communities, commodification of childhood, rise of professional childhood management, marketing images attacking childhood every second. I tell you, it's freaking brave, new & DEPRESSING world and childhood out there. And honestly I don't know what I can do about it? Buy more junk for him? Get more status anxious and terrorize poor guy with so called "education" so he could (supposedly) run the rat race more "successfully". That's what childhood has become - preparation for the rat race, it involves stuffing little minds with abstract (and useless in the "wild") knowledge and giving them an idea what makes a perfect corporate grunt destined for "upward mobility". Will it make up for him not having childhood to speak of?

Let's not just pretend that it the parents who do parenting in USA. It strange to demand "respect" from the kids raised by mass cult, TV and public education. Wage slaving parents selling most of their waking up hours to the highest bidder, they have no time for kids. At best they just provide bunking space & breakfast for the kids in between school busings. It's NOT the parents who define kid's worldviews and attitudes to life etc. If you claim otherwise, great chances are that your parents took those "ideas" straight from TV screens. Kids are overwhelmed by the stream of advertisement & TV associating "happiness" & fulfillment with upper middle class settings and consumption patterns. If absentee parents don't deliver consumption patterns as seen on TV, it's "obvious" they made some bad choices in their lives, and losers are not the ones deserving respect.
I highly suggest that you read the few previous posts of mine above. I think you might find it incredibly interesting. For the record, your childs experience growing up (assuming they were born in 2001 or later) is going to be very similar in general terms to kids born between 1925 and 1945. Read it over and think about it. In some ways it may be frustrating, as I have found in studying it, that one supposedly really can't "break the mold" even if they are aware that they are in one.
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:47 PM
 
9,018 posts, read 7,964,545 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Modern childhood is more pathetic & deprived in many ways than the childhood of 3rd world villagers, I know, my son is way more deprived of the livable environment than I was, more exactly, he's got none to speak of, he's a little prisoner to be bussed, uniformed and professionally organized & managed. He has no "trespassing is OK" space to explore, no community to relate, concept of spontaneous play without store bought paraphernalia is unknown to him. He's totally dependent, imprisoned and deprived of the things that defined childhood of countless generations of human children in the past.

Lack of public space, lack of livable communities, commodification of childhood, rise of the professional childhood management & "education", marketing images attacking childhood every second. I tell you, it's freaking brave, new & DEPRESSING world and childhood out there. And honestly I don't know what I can do about it? Buy more junk for him? Get more status anxious and terrorize poor guy with so called "education" so he could (supposedly) run the rat race more "successfully". That's what childhood has become - preparation for the rat race, it involves stuffing little minds with abstract (and useless in the "wild") knowledge and giving them an idea what makes a perfect corporate grunt destined for "upward mobility". Will it make up for him not having childhood to speak of? And guess what, since parents do NOT decide a squat about the rules of the rat race, their "authority" is undermined automatically.

Let's not just pretend that it the parents who do parenting in USA. As I said, it's not the parents who hold "hoops" their kids should jump through, it's not parents who define their kids goals and ideas about the surrounding world. Kids are raised by mass cult, TV and public education. Wage slaving parents are selling most of their waking up hours to the highest bidder, they have no time for kids. At best they just provide bunking space & breakfast for the kids in between school busings. It's NOT the parents who define kid's worldviews and attitudes to life etc. If you claim otherwise, great chances are that your parents took those "ideas" straight from TV screens. Kids are overwhelmed by the stream of advertisement & TV associating "happiness" & fulfillment with upper middle class settings and consumption patterns. If absentee parents don't deliver consumption patterns as seen on TV, it's "obvious" they made some bad choices in their lives, and losers are not the ones deserving respect.
Well said
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Modern childhood is more pathetic & deprived in many ways than the childhood of 3rd world villagers, I know, my son is way more deprived of the livable environment than I was,....

Kids are overwhelmed by the stream of advertisement & TV associating "happiness" & fulfillment with upper middle class settings and consumption patterns.
So what are YOU doing to change things for YOUR child?

Ever think of turning off the TV for starters?
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Old 01-27-2012, 03:18 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 35,041,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Modern childhood is more pathetic & deprived in many ways than the childhood of 3rd world villagers, I know, my son is way more deprived of the livable environment than I was, more exactly, he's got none to speak of, he's a little prisoner to be bussed, uniformed and professionally organized & managed. He has no "trespassing is OK" space to explore, no community to relate, concept of spontaneous play without store bought paraphernalia is unknown to him. He's totally dependent, imprisoned and deprived of the things that defined childhood of countless generations of human children in the past.
That sounds dreadful. Have you considered moving? My son is outside right now playing with snow and sticks.

Is the dissatisfaction of your own job at the end of a long week perhaps coloring your post here? I don't think I've ever heard someone speak so disparagingly about their own child's life.
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