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Old 01-27-2012, 05:09 PM
 
2,844 posts, read 1,859,609 times
Reputation: 3477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
So limit TV, don't turn it off completely. Allow internet access only after homework is done. Use parental controls, and set time limits. It's called "parenting". You speak as if you have no control over these things.
Sure I have control over TV controls, but what's next? So, you cut off digital information noise (even though ultimately it doesn't matter, noise is everywhere) but your kid is locked up on 1/4 of an acre, he's dependent on you and school bus for transportation, he's dependent on school coaching and busing for the organized "play", he's dependent on school for "after class activities", there is no space (especially natural space) for him to explore and to play (without being arrested and charged), there is no community (forgive the ancient word) for him to mingle with and to learn from, there are few meaningful activities for him (other than washing dishes). That's pretty deprived childhood as for me, but what can I do about that?

Yup, I think I know what you would suggest - I should fill his free with even More abstract "education" and test preparations and that's what I call child abuse, that's not the childhood God intended. Segregating and Locking up kids from 5 to 19 to stuff their heads with abstract knowledge of the most dubious value is a relatively new invention, barely 100 years old, yet it managed to undermine social sanity quite a bit.

Last edited by RememberMee; 01-27-2012 at 05:42 PM..
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:37 PM
 
8,015 posts, read 3,404,131 times
Reputation: 9527
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
Let me see if I understand correctly. You are lamenting the fact that parents are not setting boundaries, and yet you are not setting boundaries either with regard to the media?
I was too lazy to post this.
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Old 01-27-2012, 06:44 PM
 
Location: here
16,590 posts, read 12,910,650 times
Reputation: 13222
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Sure I have control over TV controls, but what's next? So, you cut off digital information noise (even though ultimately it doesn't matter, noise is everywhere) but your kid is locked up on 1/4 of an acre, he's dependent on you and school bus for transportation, he's dependent on school coaching and busing for the organized "play", he's dependent on school for "after class activities", there is no space (especially natural space) for him to explore and to play (without being arrested and charged), there is no community (forgive the ancient word) for him to mingle with and to learn from, there are few meaningful activities for him (other than washing dishes). That's pretty deprived childhood as for me, but what can I do about that?

Yup, I think I know what you would suggest - I should fill his free with even More abstract "education" and test preparations and that's what I call child abuse, that's not the childhood God intended. Segregating and Locking up kids from 5 to 19 to stuff their heads with abstract knowledge of the most dubious value is a relatively new invention, barely 100 years old, yet it managed to undermine social sanity quite a bit.
whatever. No, you don't have total control over everything, but you are free to parent how you want. If you don't, you have only yourself to blame.
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Old 01-28-2012, 04:10 AM
Status: "Humming "Suicide is painless"" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,244 posts, read 15,049,789 times
Reputation: 10746
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Sure I have control over TV controls, but what's next? So, you cut off digital information noise (even though ultimately it doesn't matter, noise is everywhere) but your kid is locked up on 1/4 of an acre, he's dependent on you and school bus for transportation, he's dependent on school coaching and busing for the organized "play", he's dependent on school for "after class activities", there is no space (especially natural space) for him to explore and to play (without being arrested and charged), there is no community (forgive the ancient word) for him to mingle with and to learn from, there are few meaningful activities for him (other than washing dishes). That's pretty deprived childhood as for me, but what can I do about that?

Yup, I think I know what you would suggest - I should fill his free with even More abstract "education" and test preparations and that's what I call child abuse, that's not the childhood God intended. Segregating and Locking up kids from 5 to 19 to stuff their heads with abstract knowledge of the most dubious value is a relatively new invention, barely 100 years old, yet it managed to undermine social sanity quite a bit.
While it has its issues, formal education is the best way we have to transfer the large amounts of information needed to function in this world. Yes, formal education, for the younger set, is a, relatively, new invention but look at how much the world has changed in just the last 100 years. The adoption of formal education was in response to the need to learn massive amounts of material before you're ready to function in this world. I'm sure God does not intend us to raise our kids like they were in the 1800's and then release them into a post 2000 society. That would be unfair to our kids and society.

One of the nice things about a free society is that you are free to work to change things if you think they aren't working the way they are. As a teacher, the thing I see broken about education is our children's attitudes towards it. They are not taught to value education nor are they taught that learning is their job and their responsibility. They seem to arrive in the classroom thining that their education is everyone's job but theirs and all too often, view education as something that is forced upon them that they openly resist. Sadly, we could do this in so much less time if our kids were on board with the process. So few actually benefit from our formal education system but the few who do, really benefit from it so it's not changing any time soon. Oh, they'll try some kind of online learning, thinking it will be a great cost save and kids will soar through the material when given the option to self pace but it will flop because kids do not take responsibility for their own learning. Someone who isn't invested in their own learning isn't going to self pace well when given online programs to work with. While teachers are often pushing a rope, many kids learn more because they are in a classroom that sets the pace so it's not going away any time soon.

That said, I will agree that 5 is too young to start formal education but, in all honesty, most parents are pushing their kids to learn the alphabet, count and read long before that. It's not school that is not letting kids be kids. It's parents.

IMO, education does need to change. I'd like to see a shorter school day and a longer school year. I'd like to see a concentration on the core classes. Instead of all classes being 50 minutes (I teach high school), make the core classes 90 minutes and the electives 40 minutes. Unfortunately, that does not lend itself to scheduling and our insistance that teenagers can't be expected to be responsible for themselves for an hour at a time is an issue. The real reason our school day is as regimented as it is is that we don't hold our kids accountable. We hold everyone else accountable for them. So, I have to know where they are every single minute. I'd love to see high school scheduled more like college but we can't because we have to monitor their behavior at all times so they're in the classroom.

As to TV, throw it out if it bothers you. You don't need one. I used to work with a guy who only turns his TV on once a week to watch a movie with his family. Other than that it is off. They don't have cable, they don't have cell phone and internet is used for information purposes only (if he hadn't needed it for work, he wouldn't have had internet at all). How you live, WRT, technology, is your business. Personally, I wish I'd limited TV and internet more than I did. Hindsight is always 20/20.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-28-2012 at 04:39 AM..
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Old 01-29-2012, 09:14 PM
 
2,844 posts, read 1,859,609 times
Reputation: 3477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
While it has its issues, formal education is the best way we have to transfer the large amounts of information needed to function in this world. Yes, formal education, for the younger set, is a, relatively, new invention but look at how much the world has changed in just the last 100 years. The adoption of formal education was in response to the need to learn massive amounts of material before you're ready to function in this world. I'm sure God does not intend us to raise our kids like they were in the 1800's and then release them into a post 2000 society. That would be unfair to our kids and society.
Nope, segregating & locking up 5-19 years olds do NOT have much to do with formal "education" in the Jeffersonian or any sense, don't fool yourself, just talk to an average formally "educated" (2-5 years after being released) to see what I'm talking about.

Kids were robbed of "practical" education where community & relatives taught them acceptable behavior, customs, practical skills and even some RRR. Kids were robbed of their free time, imagination & free space to explore & learn. But what were they given instead? Yup, tonnes of fragmented, mostly abstract, information GARBAGE that passes for "knowledge" these days, the fragmented garbage doesn't create coherent picture of the world, society, nature, man, whatever. It's just a random collection of fragmented facts that are poorly related to everyday life, and have very limited value (if any). Only few kids whose desire to learn things & critical thinking was not killed by educators (that's what schools do the best), manage to organize bits and pieces into something coherent on their own. The most ironic thing - most of that abstract concoction that kids were learning for 12 years is forgotten warp speed after finals/graduation because it does NOT help them to function in the real world.

Here is a humorous piece called "Five Minute University" by Father Guido Sarducci:
Father Guido Sarducci's Five Minute University - YouTube. "Five Minute High School" is just as effective. Recent push for more & more testing (Multiple choice, geez) will debilitate kids by fragmented garbage even more.

However, concentration kiddie camps do fulfill important educational & social mission. They prepare future wage units for the corporate machine etc.. Here what an average wage unit MUST learn to function in the modern world. Kids will forget 95% of the info garbage they were "learning" for 12 years, kids might never master RRR (in TWELVE freaking years) but they will master these "skills".

1. Unquestionable obedience to hierarchical authority & arbitrary sets of rules
2. Obedience to the rigid schedules
3. Tolerance for routine and repetitive tasks
4. Tolerance for boredom
5. Ability to sit still & concentrate on less than exciting tasks for the extended periods of time
6. Mastery of the foundational myths, nation & political system specific.
7....

Also, schools are employed to further segregate kids into grades & castes. Schools mark inferior stock with poor grades and remedial placement. The spirits of openly rebellious & failing at 6 basics kids are either knocked down by powerful psychotropic drugs and shrinks or kids are black marked and expelled. Kids showing promise as future specialized grunts are labeled and processed separately. The future alpha grunts a.k.a. "leaders" are given their first lessons on managing the masses the way grown ups manage their wage slaves. In other words, reproduction of the hierarchical social order is number 1 task of the schools everything else is secondary.

Since schools are "entrusted" with the task of sorting kids into castes there is no abuse of human spirit that status anxious wage slaving parents wouldn't allow. Some parents are so messed up they volunteer their kids for psychotropic medications never mind that Ritalin-happy teachers don't insist (yet). All in the name of little Johny being graded as a potential "grunt" or "leader".
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Old 01-29-2012, 09:27 PM
 
5,626 posts, read 2,357,210 times
Reputation: 8961
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Nope, segregating & locking up 5-19 years olds do NOT have much to do with formal "education" in the Jeffersonian or any sense, don't fool yourself, just talk to an average formally "educated" (2-5 years after being released) to see what I'm talking about.

Kids were robbed of "practical" education where community & relatives taught them acceptable behavior, customs, practical skills and even some RRR. Kids were robbed of their free time, imagination & free space to explore & learn. But what were they given instead? Yup, tonnes of fragmented, mostly abstract, information GARBAGE that passes for "knowledge" these days, the fragmented garbage doesn't create coherent picture of the world, society, nature, man, whatever. It's just a random collection of fragmented facts that are poorly related to everyday life, and have very limited value (if any). Only few kids whose desire to learn things & critical thinking was not killed by educators (that's what schools do the best), manage to organize bits and pieces into something coherent on their own. The most ironic thing - most of that abstract concoction that kids were learning for 12 years is forgotten warp speed after finals/graduation because it does NOT help them to function in the real world.

Here is a humorous piece called "Five Minute University" by Father Guido Sarducci:
Father Guido Sarducci's Five Minute University - YouTube. "Five Minute High School" is just as effective. Recent push for more & more testing (Multiple choice, geez) will debilitate kids by fragmented garbage even more.

However, concentration kiddie camps do fulfill important educational & social mission. They prepare future wage units for the corporate machine etc.. Here what an average wage unit MUST learn to function in the modern world. Kids will forget 95% of the info garbage they were "learning" for 12 years, kids might never master RRR (in TWELVE freaking years) but they will master these "skills".

1. Unquestionable obedience to hierarchical authority & arbitrary sets of rules
2. Obedience to the rigid schedules
3. Tolerance for routine and repetitive tasks
4. Tolerance for boredom
5. Ability to sit still & concentrate on less than exciting tasks for the extended periods of time
6. Mastery of the foundational myths, nation & political system specific.
7....

Also, schools are employed to further segregate kids into grades & castes. Schools mark inferior stock with poor grades and remedial placement. The spirits of openly rebellious & failing at 6 basics kids are either knocked down by powerful psychotropic drugs and shrinks or kids are black marked and expelled. Kids showing promise as future specialized grunts are labeled and processed separately. The future alpha grunts a.k.a. "leaders" are given their first lessons on managing the masses the way grown ups manage their wage slaves. In other words, reproduction of the hierarchical social order is number 1 task of the schools everything else is secondary.

Since schools are "entrusted" with the task of sorting kids into castes there is no abuse of human spirit that status anxious wage slaving parents wouldn't allow. Some parents are so messed up they volunteer their kids for psychotropic medications never mind that Ritalin-happy teachers don't insist (yet). All in the name of little Johny being graded as a potential "grunt" or "leader".
This is my favorite post of the week!! Excellent points- Very well done!!

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Old 01-30-2012, 03:35 AM
Status: "Humming "Suicide is painless"" (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Whoville....
21,244 posts, read 15,049,789 times
Reputation: 10746
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Nope, segregating & locking up 5-19 years olds do NOT have much to do with formal "education" in the Jeffersonian or any sense, don't fool yourself, just talk to an average formally "educated" (2-5 years after being released) to see what I'm talking about.

Kids were robbed of "practical" education where community & relatives taught them acceptable behavior, customs, practical skills and even some RRR. Kids were robbed of their free time, imagination & free space to explore & learn. But what were they given instead? Yup, tonnes of fragmented, mostly abstract, information GARBAGE that passes for "knowledge" these days, the fragmented garbage doesn't create coherent picture of the world, society, nature, man, whatever. It's just a random collection of fragmented facts that are poorly related to everyday life, and have very limited value (if any). Only few kids whose desire to learn things & critical thinking was not killed by educators (that's what schools do the best), manage to organize bits and pieces into something coherent on their own. The most ironic thing - most of that abstract concoction that kids were learning for 12 years is forgotten warp speed after finals/graduation because it does NOT help them to function in the real world.

Here is a humorous piece called "Five Minute University" by Father Guido Sarducci:
Father Guido Sarducci's Five Minute University - YouTube. "Five Minute High School" is just as effective. Recent push for more & more testing (Multiple choice, geez) will debilitate kids by fragmented garbage even more.

However, concentration kiddie camps do fulfill important educational & social mission. They prepare future wage units for the corporate machine etc.. Here what an average wage unit MUST learn to function in the modern world. Kids will forget 95% of the info garbage they were "learning" for 12 years, kids might never master RRR (in TWELVE freaking years) but they will master these "skills".

1. Unquestionable obedience to hierarchical authority & arbitrary sets of rules
2. Obedience to the rigid schedules
3. Tolerance for routine and repetitive tasks
4. Tolerance for boredom
5. Ability to sit still & concentrate on less than exciting tasks for the extended periods of time
6. Mastery of the foundational myths, nation & political system specific.
7....

Also, schools are employed to further segregate kids into grades & castes. Schools mark inferior stock with poor grades and remedial placement. The spirits of openly rebellious & failing at 6 basics kids are either knocked down by powerful psychotropic drugs and shrinks or kids are black marked and expelled. Kids showing promise as future specialized grunts are labeled and processed separately. The future alpha grunts a.k.a. "leaders" are given their first lessons on managing the masses the way grown ups manage their wage slaves. In other words, reproduction of the hierarchical social order is number 1 task of the schools everything else is secondary.

Since schools are "entrusted" with the task of sorting kids into castes there is no abuse of human spirit that status anxious wage slaving parents wouldn't allow. Some parents are so messed up they volunteer their kids for psychotropic medications never mind that Ritalin-happy teachers don't insist (yet). All in the name of little Johny being graded as a potential "grunt" or "leader".
Did you read the rest of my post. Nothing changes until we hold our kids responsible for their own behavior during the day. Right now, the school is held responsible for students during the day, so yes, they are locked up and they will be as long as they are the school's responsibility during the day and we will demand comliance because that is the only way to deal with large groups who are not held accountable for their own behaviors. I hate that I can't even let a high school student who is done with the classwork go to the computer lab on her own to finish a project for another class. I can't because I am responsible if she doesn't go to the computer lab or is on sites she shouldn't be while at the computer lab. So, she stays in my class and twiddles her thumbs.

I'm sorry but group education is the best method we have right now to impart the massive amounts of information required by modern society and that will not change until we hold students accountable for their own learning and behavior. I don't see either happening in this country any time soon.

Like it or not, it takes a lot go from counting to Algebra II, from learning the alphabet to reading on a 10th grade level, etc, etc, etc,.... Sorry but it takes many years. I do think we could optimize the process if we taught in depth but we'd need to hold students accountable for their learning as well and that will not happen in this country. When a child fails, it's everyone's fault but his. We do not accept that some students just aren't school material. We do not accept that some students fail because they don't work.

The system will not change until we have a major change in attitude. We have a massive amount of information to impart with the end goal being turning out critical thinkers. Sorry, as things are, that takes locking kids up for 180 days a year for 13 years.

Seriously? You don't think learning mathematical logic, how to read, how to write and how to think analytically (in sciene) helps kids in the real world???? I'm sorry but it takes a lot of years to get from counting to Algebra, from learning your letters to reading a science text, from learning about butterflies to studying chemistry, biology and physics (which have NOTHING do to with the world we live in ) and until we change our attitudes about who is responsible for children's behavior and learning, nothing will change.
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Old 01-30-2012, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
11,852 posts, read 5,241,416 times
Reputation: 11000
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Sure I have control over TV controls, but what's next? So, you cut off digital information noise (even though ultimately it doesn't matter, noise is everywhere) but your kid is locked up on 1/4 of an acre, he's dependent on you and school bus for transportation, he's dependent on school coaching and busing for the organized "play", he's dependent on school for "after class activities", there is no space (especially natural space) for him to explore and to play (without being arrested and charged), there is no community (forgive the ancient word) for him to mingle with and to learn from, there are few meaningful activities for him (other than washing dishes). That's pretty deprived childhood as for me, but what can I do about that?

Yup, I think I know what you would suggest - I should fill his free with even More abstract "education" and test preparations and that's what I call child abuse, that's not the childhood God intended. Segregating and Locking up kids from 5 to 19 to stuff their heads with abstract knowledge of the most dubious value is a relatively new invention, barely 100 years old, yet it managed to undermine social sanity quite a bit.
I am just curious why you have chosen this lifestyle for your children when you find it so abhorrent?

We live in a large metro area on 1 1/2 acres. We have a largely wooded lot where the children can roam and play. We chose to live in an area that was community based. We chose to live in an area where the kids can roam the neighborhood going to friends houses. We chose to live in an area where the children ride their bikes on the street.

If that was so important to you why did you not seek it out for your child?
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:40 AM
 
Location: here
16,590 posts, read 12,910,650 times
Reputation: 13222
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Nope, segregating & locking up 5-19 years olds do NOT have much to do with formal "education" in the Jeffersonian or any sense, don't fool yourself, just talk to an average formally "educated" (2-5 years after being released) to see what I'm talking about.

Kids were robbed of "practical" education where community & relatives taught them acceptable behavior, customs, practical skills and even some RRR. Kids were robbed of their free time, imagination & free space to explore & learn. But what were they given instead? Yup, tonnes of fragmented, mostly abstract, information GARBAGE that passes for "knowledge" these days, the fragmented garbage doesn't create coherent picture of the world, society, nature, man, whatever. It's just a random collection of fragmented facts that are poorly related to everyday life, and have very limited value (if any). Only few kids whose desire to learn things & critical thinking was not killed by educators (that's what schools do the best), manage to organize bits and pieces into something coherent on their own. The most ironic thing - most of that abstract concoction that kids were learning for 12 years is forgotten warp speed after finals/graduation because it does NOT help them to function in the real world.


However, concentration kiddie camps do fulfill important educational & social mission. They prepare future wage units for the corporate machine etc.. Here what an average wage unit MUST learn to function in the modern world. Kids will forget 95% of the info garbage they were "learning" for 12 years, kids might never master RRR (in TWELVE freaking years) but they will master these "skills".

1. Unquestionable obedience to hierarchical authority & arbitrary sets of rules
2. Obedience to the rigid schedules
3. Tolerance for routine and repetitive tasks
4. Tolerance for boredom
5. Ability to sit still & concentrate on less than exciting tasks for the extended periods of time
6. Mastery of the foundational myths, nation & political system specific.
7....

Also, schools are employed to further segregate kids into grades & castes. Schools mark inferior stock with poor grades and remedial placement. The spirits of openly rebellious & failing at 6 basics kids are either knocked down by powerful psychotropic drugs and shrinks or kids are black marked and expelled. Kids showing promise as future specialized grunts are labeled and processed separately. The future alpha grunts a.k.a. "leaders" are given their first lessons on managing the masses the way grown ups manage their wage slaves. In other words, reproduction of the hierarchical social order is number 1 task of the schools everything else is secondary.

Since schools are "entrusted" with the task of sorting kids into castes there is no abuse of human spirit that status anxious wage slaving parents wouldn't allow. Some parents are so messed up they volunteer their kids for psychotropic medications never mind that Ritalin-happy teachers don't insist (yet). All in the name of little Johny being graded as a potential "grunt" or "leader".
Then why don't you home school?
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Old 01-30-2012, 09:29 AM
 
Location: In Line For The E Ticket Ride
20,527 posts, read 10,921,285 times
Reputation: 21944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
Then why don't you home school?
My question as well.

So far all you've done is type out a list of gripes and complaints. What are YOU doing to correct things? If these are your kids who are being held captive it's because you allow them to be. You are as much of a sheep as the members of the system you are complaining about.

Post 269 shows us you've got an agenda. I'd love to know what you are doing to fight the man and free your kids from the oppressor.

BTW Father Guido Sarducci was one of my favorites but that clip is from, what, 1975? Man. You gotta get more current.
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