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Old 01-16-2012, 01:36 PM
 
Location: North America
14,212 posts, read 9,625,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Not worse? Why not them trying to look at crime rates as compared with young ages? That is just one area. Check it out. Even though I did not check that myself, I venture to guess it is much higher today than yesterday. I am not referring to petty things like painting on wall or things like that. Teens have done that for years. I am referring to crime like murder, armed robbery, rape, etc. I was a teen in the 50s and we committed a few bad things. I remember but I know we had a sense of respect that was better than today. For example, there is no way I would approach a kid on the street if he was missbehaving. He would curse me, call dad, and dad probably believe the kid before he would believe me. After that he probably wants to beat me up or call the police on me.
An example of an attitude that is widespread in school was mentione by a teacher taking a college class I was also attending.
She said this 9 year boy did not do much homework or class assignment and failed the tests. At the end of the school year the kids told the teache that he will pass. She, of course, did not pass him. The next day the teacher was called to the principal's office. The mother was demanding her child pass. The principal turned to the teacher asking (implying compliance) if she could pass the child. She said no and the principal said he would be OK so she said he was going to the next grade. What happened next? The boy turned to the teacher and said "See %^&%$ (female dog), I told you I would pass". What did the principal and mother do? Simply that it was not nice to be that way.
Situations like this would not happen much in my generation in the 50s. That is for sure. The mother would have spanked the kid, gone home and than the dad would be next, and who know what else the principal had done also.
I am not saying our generation did not have certain flaws our parents did not agree with. Of course our parents thought we had it better and were worse. I am simply saying that in some areas today's children are in pretty bad shape when it comes to discipline, respect, and ethics as a whole, there are many excptions of great kids also I must say and that is very refreshing to see. Take care.
Crime reporting along with public transparency is much greater now than it was in the 30s-50s. So i suspect that the crime rate was higher than archived FBI data lets us on. However the crime rate has been dropping for some time now as it is. I imagine esp in the areas of violent crimes the times dictated a lot of things were swept under the rug, rape being a notable crime i could name, along with domestic violence.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:41 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,537,960 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
Not worse? Why not them trying to look at crime rates as compared with young ages? That is just one area. Check it out. Even though I did not check that myself, I venture to guess it is much higher today than yesterday. I am not referring to petty things like painting on wall or things like that. Teens have done that for years. I am referring to crime like murder, armed robbery, rape, etc. I was a teen in the 50s and we committed a few bad things.
It depends on what you consider "today" vs. "yesterday". In the short term view, violent crimes among juveniles are down sharply from spikes in the time period from 1987-1994. As of today, violent crimes (which encompass those you were listing) are down 74% compared to 1994 levels and are currently 11% below levels reported in the 1970's. The rate is around 20% higher than the one reported in the 1950's and 1960's, but some attribute this to more aggressive policing that yields more arrests, which in turn yields higher crime rates.

Basically, youth crime in general and violent crime in particular are at their lowest levels since the 1960's.

Quote:
I remember but I know we had a sense of respect that was better than today. For example, there is no way I would approach a kid on the street if he was missbehaving. He would curse me, call dad, and dad probably believe the kid before he would believe me. After that he probably wants to beat me up or call the police on me.

An example of an attitude that is widespread in school was mentione by a teacher taking a college class I was also attending.
She said this 9 year boy did not do much homework or class assignment and failed the tests. At the end of the school year the kids told the teache that he will pass. She, of course, did not pass him. The next day the teacher was called to the principal's office. The mother was demanding her child pass. The principal turned to the teacher asking (implying compliance) if she could pass the child. She said no and the principal said he would be OK so she said he was going to the next grade. What happened next? The boy turned to the teacher and said "See %^&%$ (female dog), I told you I would pass". What did the principal and mother do? Simply that it was not nice to be that way.

Situations like this would not happen much in my generation in the 50s. That is for sure. The mother would have spanked the kid, gone home and than the dad would be next, and who know what else the principal had done also.

I am not saying our generation did not have certain flaws our parents did not agree with. Of course our parents thought we had it better and were worse. I am simply saying that in some areas today's children are in pretty bad shape when it comes to discipline, respect, and ethics as a whole, there are many excptions of great kids also I must say and that is very refreshing to see. Take care.
I'm sure we could pull anecdotal accounts from every generation regarding disrespect of elders and favors being given and adults turning a blind eye. I don't think anecdotes really explain anything more than changing attitudes. Ultimately the measure of success will be based upon what these children do as adults. Historically, the "horrible kids" grow up and become the leaders, captains of indsustry, etc. In generation after generation we see that while particular attitudes are different and each generation has a certain amount of "youth angst" in particular areas, the kids ultimately grow up and take on the mantle of responsibility that is passed down to them. I don't see anything to suggest the current generation won't pass into adulthood much the same as others.

There was an interesting thread on Strauss and Howe Generational Theory that was active here and in the History forum not too long ago. It may be worth a read to see how the historians view the differences in generations and the cycles that we live through:

Strauss and Howe Generational Theory
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:47 PM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,367,847 times
Reputation: 1944
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Not worse? Why not them trying to look at crime rates as compared with young ages? That is just one area. Check it out. Even though I did not check that myself, I venture to guess it is much higher today than yesterday. I am not referring to petty things like painting on wall or things like that. Teens have done that for years. I am referring to crime like murder, armed robbery, rape, etc. I was a teen in the 50s and we committed a few bad things. I remember but I know we had a sense of respect that was better than today. For example, there is no way I would approach a kid on the street if he was missbehaving. He would curse me, call dad, and dad probably believe the kid before he would believe me. After that he probably wants to beat me up or call the police on me.
An example of an attitude that is widespread in school was mentione by a teacher taking a college class I was also attending.
She said this 9 year boy did not do much homework or class assignment and failed the tests. At the end of the school year the kids told the teache that he will pass. She, of course, did not pass him. The next day the teacher was called to the principal's office. The mother was demanding her child pass. The principal turned to the teacher asking (implying compliance) if she could pass the child. She said no and the principal said he would be OK so she said he was going to the next grade. What happened next? The boy turned to the teacher and said "See %^&%$ (female dog), I told you I would pass". What did the principal and mother do? Simply that it was not nice to be that way.
Situations like this would not happen much in my generation in the 50s. That is for sure. The mother would have spanked the kid, gone home and than the dad would be next, and who know what else the principal had done also.
I am not saying our generation did not have certain flaws our parents did not agree with. Of course our parents thought we had it better and were worse. I am simply saying that in some areas today's children are in pretty bad shape when it comes to discipline, respect, and ethics as a whole, there are many excptions of great kids also I must say and that is very refreshing to see. Take care.
The bolded above is not an example of respect but of fear.

The second example with the 9 year old is an example of fear of the parent and student.

Fear has always been around. It may come up in different situations today than it did back then, but it was there, nonetheless.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:49 PM
 
11,615 posts, read 19,731,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Not worse? Why not them trying to look at crime rates as compared with young ages?
Youth crime rates are lower today than they were in the 1990s. INCLUDING violent crimes.

Youth Violence Project - National Statistics

Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
I am simply saying that in some areas today's children are in pretty bad shape when it comes to discipline, respect, and ethics as a whole, there are many excptions of great kids also I must say and that is very refreshing to see. Take care.
I do not doubt that there are kids that in pretty bad shape when it comes to discipline, respect and ethics, however I do not agree that today's teens are any worse than teens of the past.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:53 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,758,039 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucidkitty View Post
Crime reporting along with public transparency is much greater now than it was in the 30s-50s. So i suspect that the crime rate was higher than archived FBI data lets us on. However the crime rate has been dropping for some time now as it is. I imagine esp in the areas of violent crimes the times dictated a lot of things were swept under the rug, rape being a notable crime i could name, along with domestic violence.
As far as the transparency I agree and that can distort data. However, as I said, from what I observed as teen on how my peers talked to teachers, parents, even strangers is different.
Also, why not bring up something that would be hard to hide. Murder on school grounds. I do not know how old you are but I do remember when I was a teen, I only heard of ONE and that was some type of news that so unheard of. How much do you hear about that in schools today? So, again, I do agree that data can be misleading because today we have much better data gathering and many areas were not reported as they are today. What to do next? Base it on what I saw around me. After all we teens were no different when we talked amongst ourselves. We knew who had sex, who was abused, what type of crime was commited. When I compare what I heard and what my teenage kids told me is a worse situation. Take care.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:58 PM
 
Location: United State of Texas
1,708 posts, read 5,267,789 times
Reputation: 2095
Somehow we managed to raise three respectful, outgoing, and successful kids who never ended up in jail or on drugs. They are now 25, 26, and 31 and we are all close. We are friends as much as we are family...

I like to think it's because our kids had parents.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:58 PM
 
11,615 posts, read 19,731,699 times
Reputation: 12051
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
Also, why not bring up something that would be hard to hide. Murder on school grounds. I do not know how old you are but I do remember when I was a teen, I only heard of ONE and that was some type of news that so unheard of. How much do you hear about that in schools today?
Just because you didn't hear about something does not mean it did not happen. There is much more national news reporting in the 21st century than in the past. That does not mean that these things did not happen in the past. It just means that the means of publicizing such events across a large country did not exist.

No matter what you hear on the news violent crime is lower than it was 50 years ago.
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Old 01-16-2012, 01:59 PM
 
14,777 posts, read 34,537,960 times
Reputation: 14278
Quote:
Originally Posted by elamigo View Post
As far as the transparency I agree and that can distort data. However, as I said, from what I observed as teen on how my peers talked to teachers, parents, even strangers is different.
Also, why not bring up something that would be hard to hide. Murder on school grounds. I do not know how old you are but I do remember when I was a teen, I only heard of ONE and that was some type of news that so unheard of. How much do you hear about that in schools today? So, again, I do agree that data can be misleading because today we have much better data gathering and many areas were not reported as they are today. What to do next? Base it on what I saw around me. After all we teens were no different when we talked amongst ourselves. We knew who had sex, who was abused, what type of crime was commited. When I compare what I heard and what my teenage kids told me is a worse situation. Take care.
Attitude may be different, but that does not mean the kids any worse or better. That is a more objective measurement, while attitude is entirely subjective thing.

The other point I would mention is that our media is extremely voracious these days now that they need to fill a 24 hour news cycle. Events that are in practice extremely rare and actually less prevalent then in the past, like teen suicides and school violence, tend to result in massive exposure that leaves people feeling like these events are "all too common" when the reality is anything but. In the past it was rare for anything beyond national news to spread beyond the local media and some things like suicide were purposefully kept hush. These were things people simply didn't "talk about".

So, I think what we ultimately have is a shift in attitudes coupled with an abundance of information. It makes the situation seem much worse than what it actually is in reality.
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:03 PM
 
2,726 posts, read 4,367,847 times
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Our goal is to continuously improve our communication with my daughter. We expect her to ask if she wants something and for the most part, she has stepped up to the plate and can ask politely. She also knows that "no" may be a possible answer even if she is polite.

But when we are not listening and she feels like she needs to be assertive because she has decided that her need is important, we don't discipline her. Sometimes we celebrate her assertiveness. We can do this because we made communication and learning about one another a priority.
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Old 01-16-2012, 02:05 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
3,302 posts, read 3,758,039 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
It depends on what you consider "today" vs. "yesterday". In the short term view, violent crimes among juveniles are down sharply from spikes in the time period from 1987-1994. As of today, violent crimes (which encompass those you were listing) are down 74% compared to 1994 levels and are currently 11% below levels reported in the 1970's. The rate is around 20% higher than the one reported in the 1950's and 1960's, but some attribute this to more aggressive policing that yields more arrests, which in turn yields higher crime rates.

Basically, youth crime in general and violent crime in particular are at their lowest levels since the 1960's.



I'm sure we could pull anecdotal accounts from every generation regarding disrespect of elders and favors being given and adults turning a blind eye. I don't think anecdotes really explain anything more than changing attitudes. Ultimately the measure of success will be based upon what these children do as adults. Historically, the "horrible kids" grow up and become the leaders, captains of indsustry, etc. In generation after generation we see that while particular attitudes are different and each generation has a certain amount of "youth angst" in particular areas, the kids ultimately grow up and take on the mantle of responsibility that is passed down to them. I don't see anything to suggest the current generation won't pass into adulthood much the same as others.

There was an interesting thread on Strauss and Howe Generational Theory that was active here and in the History forum not too long ago. It may be worth a read to see how the historians view the differences in generations and the cycles that we live through:

Strauss and Howe Generational Theory
All I can say is the response I provided already and is above. I also read the book "The Way We Never Were". It does describe a lot of the things you mention. I am aware of that how we tend to romantecize (sorry for the wrong spelling) the past.
But, are you telling me that you would approach a kid today with no problem if you saw him missbehave on the street? Do you feel confident he will be more respectfull to you today than in let us say the 50s? What are the odds he will tell you to do some self copulation?
What are the odds that kids in the 50s would tell a teacher the same?
It is good to do scientific research to get an idea of how things compare in generation. The problem I often see is that today's research tend to be done with the lense of present day attitudes and the way our culture is. As much as they may try to be objective, it is difficut. I am trapped on that and I am aware of that. That is why I simply ask you the examples I asked above. What are the odds of the responses I mentioned?
If you think it is OK for a student to tell a teacher "Fornicate you!" with no consequences it probable that you will see kids no worse than in the past, just a guess because when I was in school, no way we would show such disrespect to our teachers. The same on the streets when I observe parents talking to their kids and how the kids respond back. You can fall into a tunnel vision and simply accept studies that can be just as influenced by present day views. Take care.
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