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Old 01-23-2012, 03:37 PM
 
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Im my own situation I sometimes (in my mind only!!) put down SAHM's and think about how they are home eating bon bons and watching soaps all day but when it all boils down I'm jealous. I wish I could stay home all day with my daughter. But my SO and I are not in a postion to do that. I hate that we wake up at 6a leave at 8a I get home around 7p and shes sleep for the night. Im going to miss EVERYTHING!!!! :'(

Now do I think SAHM's should be paid. Ummmm no. Thats just dumb, if that happened every mom in America would do it. Well ok not EVERY mom but ALOT.

But I think it all comes down to jealousy.

 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:08 PM
 
9,057 posts, read 6,756,150 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
That's really interesting. I've never encountered a professional debate where others actually put others down because they don't do things their way. I've heard plenty of logical arguments for why one way is better but there's always reason to make the argument besides "I said so" and one side wins in the end. Thanks for sharing that. I'm a logical thinker and just don't get why people would claim anything is better without some kind of proof. If you tell me something is better, my first response is to ask you how the end results will be better because if they're not better, then it's not better.

At least in your scenario, someone could claim they think something sounds better. Since perception of sound varies from person to person, there's actually reason to think that one way may be better than another. This is analgous to comparing recipes and two people disagreeing on which tastes better. The WOH put downs actually claim that we hurt our kids with, absolutely, no proof that our kids are hurt. How our kids turn out isn't subjective like sound or taste. They either turn out different or they don't and they don't. At least not in the ways researchers measure and no one has shown me any way they are different in the end.
Well, in the technical realm, sound is not really subjective. Music is, but the ways you reproduce it has known measurable quantities and people are very good at massaging the technical data to suit their theories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Unforunately, this "just an opinion" has to be explained to my kids who are being told their mother did something to harm them. THAT I have to explain.
I totally vehemently disagree with anybody disparaging any childs' mother for any reason. But, your daughters live their life with you, do they not see how it really is, as opposed to how someone's telling them it is? They aren't that gullible, hopefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I'm trying to find a logical reason for something that is not logical.
That's kind of what I was trying to explain with my scenario. Here we have a bunch of highly technical people (albeit in the arts) who are basically emotionally and not logically presenting their case. I would say some people need validation that they're better than others - just because that's who they are. You'll never win a logic argument with them, because they aren't coming from a place of logic. That's why all the statistics and data aren't going to change their minds.

They have an ulterior motive, whether it's the need to be right, or trying to make themselves feel more secure, or whatever it is. But most people just get on with life and can't be bothered grandstanding all the time. So I think it's a personality trait, not a logic issue that you can remedy.

(And I'm talking extreme cases here. Not re: someone who just wants a bit of appreciation)
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,805,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
Well, in the technical realm, sound is not really subjective. Music is, but the ways you reproduce it has known measurable quantities and people are very good at massaging the technical data to suit their theories.



I totally vehemently disagree with anybody disparaging any childs' mother for any reason. But, your daughters live their life with you, do they not see how it really is, as opposed to how someone's telling them it is? They aren't that gullible, hopefully.



That's kind of what I was trying to explain with my scenario. Here we have a bunch of highly technical people (albeit in the arts) who are basically emotionally and not logically presenting their case. I would say some people need validation that they're better than others - just because that's who they are. You'll never win a logic argument with them, because they aren't coming from a place of logic. That's why all the statistics and data aren't going to change their minds.

They have an ulterior motive, whether it's the need to be right, or trying to make themselves feel more secure, or whatever it is. But most people just get on with life and can't be bothered grandstanding all the time. So I think it's a personality trait, not a logic issue that you can remedy.

(And I'm talking extreme cases here. Not re: someone who just wants a bit of appreciation)
As to my daughters. I have one who understands and just rolls her eyes at the things she hears from ddil and her friend's mothers (she had one friend whose mom openly declared that WM's don't love their children). The other is more complicated. She has issues that this crap feeds right into. She'll blame anyone but herself for her own decisions/actions. After talking to ddil, she told her therapist that I was never there when she was growing up and she raised herself (this is the kind of crap ddil spews).

Now if you ask my other daughter, she tells me that compared to the other moms (even the SAHM's) I'm there too much.

I have to agree on the refusal to accept logic. I've posted studies that show that our kids don't turn out differently based on maternal working staus and studies that measure the actual time difference in parenting done in WOH/SAH households in minutes per day, yet the argument that SAH is somehow superior doesn't die. It should. 40 years of research has failed to come up with significant differences in our children based on our working status, which makes our working status purely a financial decision. It's only the financial impact that matters.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-23-2012 at 05:24 PM..
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:38 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,272,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
As to my daughters. I have one who understands and just rolls her eyes at the things she hears from ddil and her friend's mothers (she had one friend whose mom openly declared that WM's don't love their children).
Have you ever spoken directly to your DIL and son and basically ask them to keep this stuff to themselves? Telling YOUR children that you are and have harmed them is just ridiculous.

By the same token, having someone talk trash in the presence of your children is something that they have to learn to deal with eventually.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:39 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,272,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
40 years of research has failed to come up with significant differences in our children based on our working status, which makes our working status purely a financial decision. It's only the financial impact that matters.
Well here we are. Are YOU trying to convince HER of the rightness of YOUR position? That is begging for more defense of hers. Get off this topic all together.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:44 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,805,825 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
Have you ever spoken directly to your DIL and son and basically ask them to keep this stuff to themselves? Telling YOUR children that you are and have harmed them is just ridiculous.

By the same token, having someone talk trash in the presence of your children is something that they have to learn to deal with eventually.
Unfortunately, I am the proud mother of one drama queen who looks for reasons to feel she's been slighted. This stuff doesn't roll off of her back. It does her sister. Dd#2 knows that she doesn't feel slighted so no one can tell her she was. Dd#1 is convinced that she's been deprived her entire life.

It's not dss and dss can't do anything about his wife. No one tells her what to do. Not even him. I think if he were around more, he'd, eventually, tell her to get off her high horse but he's only home about 2 days every 6 or so weeks so he just ignores it until it's time to get on a plane.

There is no speaking to ddil on this matter. She just says I'm justifying and making excuses for being a lousy mother (said to dh when he tried to smooth things over after she sent me nasty letter.). In her mind, any attempt to support my position is proof of hers.

You know what I find funny? Ddil will go off on how WM's hurt their kids yet it's been shown that having an active father matters more than having a SAHM. She, completely, overlooks that her kids are growing up without their father around. Not that I blame dss. Working out of state is the only way he can afford to have the six kids she wants. If they'd stopped at 2, like he wanted, he could have taken a job locally and actually been active in their lives.

Ddil also calls dh a lousy father because he didn't take dss to baseball games. No, he didn't but he did take them to little league, teach them to pitch, play golf, play chess and drive because he was actually there to do those things. Nope, dss is deprived because dh didn't take him to baseball games. Dss takes his kids a couple of times a year I'm sure in part because he hears from her how THIS is the mark of a good father). If only dh had known that THAT is what was REALLY important. He could have skipped all those parent teacher conferences...
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,805,825 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
Well here we are. Are YOU trying to convince HER of the rightness of YOUR position? That is begging for more defense of hers. Get off this topic all together.
I'm trying to convince her that WM's don't hurt their kids. If you call that the rightness of my position, then yes. WM's don't hurt their kids. Our kids, simply, do not turn out differently based, solely on our working status.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:46 PM
 
20,793 posts, read 52,548,495 times
Reputation: 10476
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioChic View Post
Im my own situation I sometimes (in my mind only!!) put down SAHM's and think about how they are home eating bon bons and watching soaps all day but when it all boils down I'm jealous. I wish I could stay home all day with my daughter. But my SO and I are not in a postion to do that. I hate that we wake up at 6a leave at 8a I get home around 7p and shes sleep for the night. Im going to miss EVERYTHING!!!! :'(

Now do I think SAHM's should be paid. Ummmm no. Thats just dumb, if that happened every mom in America would do it. Well ok not EVERY mom but ALOT.

But I think it all comes down to jealousy.
An astute observation and probably applicable to others on this thread as well.

We made sure we were in a position for one of us to stay home with our kids. We bought an affordable house, lived in an affordable area, had one car, etc. Not everyone can do that but we did everything we could to make sure we could.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:48 PM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,272,330 times
Reputation: 14658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I'm trying to convince her that WM's don't hurt their kids. If you call that the rightness of my position, then yes. WM's don't hurt their kids. Our kids, simply, do not turn out differently based, solely on our working status.
Why? So you can keep this argument good and alive in your home as you repeatedly do here? You don't want this to stop. You want her to change her opinion. It isn't going to happen.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:49 PM
 
Location: here
24,483 posts, read 28,851,362 times
Reputation: 31077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
As to my daughters. I have one who understands and just rolls her eyes at the things she hears from ddil and her friend's mothers (she had one friend whose mom openly declared that WM's don't love their children). The other is more complicated. She has issues that this crap feeds right into. She'll blame anyone but herself for her own decisions/actions. After talking to ddil, she told her therapist that I was never there when she was growing up and she raised herself (this is the kind of crap ddil spews).

Now if you ask my other daughter, she tells me that compared to the other moms (even the SAHM's) I'm there too much.

I have to agree on the refusal to accept logic. I've posted studies that show that our kids don't turn out differently based on maternal working staus and studies that measure the actual time difference in parenting done in WOH/SAH households in minutes per day, yet the argument that SAH is somehow superior doesn't die. It should. 40 years of research has failed to come up with significant differences in our children based on our working status, which makes our working status purely a financial decision. It's only the financial impact that matters.
What teens express and what they actually feel are 2 different things. DD rolling her eyes wouldn't mean much to me. Teens roll their eyes at everything.

When are you going to accept that people don't care about your statistical studies re staying home and working? That outcomes can't be quantified no matter how much you try to.

The bottom line of this issue is that there is no right or wrong way, only what works for the individual family. You problem is that you keep insisting that your way is right, and apparently so does your dil. It may cease to be an issue if you could just bring yourself to say "You do what works best for your family, and I'll do what's best for mine. Neither is better. Can we talk about something else?"
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