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Old 01-23-2012, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,788,166 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Even if you dismiss the statistics, you're still left with no reason to believe that SAH/WOH matter beyond the financial impact of the decision.
And around and around we go again. Seriously after umpteen posts on 3 threads on the exact same subject you are posting this very same argument over and over and over. Guess what, after all these posts people still don't agree with you. Why? Because it does matter....to each individual family that is, and it's just impossible to generalize. Don't you understand that yet?

 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:27 PM
 
11,229 posts, read 9,225,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
While one cannot predict individual results with statistics unless you have reason to believe that you are somehow special and they don't apply to you, you can't assume they don't.
It has nothing to do with being special. Statistics don't do anything to predict any outcome in ANY individual case. No matter how much you want this argument to work, it doesn't.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
And around and around we go again. Seriously after umpteen posts on 3 threads on the exact same subject you are posting this very same argument over and over and over. Guess what, after all these posts people still don't agree with you. Why? Because it does matter....to each individual family that is, and it's just impossible to generalize. Don't you understand that yet?
Ok, prove it matters. How will my children turn out differently than the children of a SAHM? I've issued this challenge before and it's always ignored. Let's stand our 25 year old children next to each other and you tell me what will be different between my kids and the kids who had a SAHM.

Something doesn't matter just because you want to believe it matters. You need an actual reason to believe it matters. I turn to research to find that matters and what doesn't. Personally, I'm glad it doesn't matter becaues that means this is a true choice. Neither side is hurting their kids. It's just a financial decision.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,697,018 times
Reputation: 14495
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
It has nothing to do with being special. Statistics don't do anything to predict any outcome in ANY individual case. No matter how much you want this argument to work, it doesn't.
No it can't but without reason to believe what impacts large popluations doesn't apply to you, you can't say it doesn't apply to you. You need a reason to believe you are immune to what impacts others. How do you know you're not the one who would be impacted by whatever change?

And you do realize that we're talking about research that says there's little difference in how our kids turn out, right? Even if you negate everything out there you're left with no reason to believe that one way is better than the other.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,225,745 times
Reputation: 2387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Yes, I know how statistics work...do you? By comparing groups that are large enough, we can look at indiviual factors to see if they make a difference. While one cannot predict individual results with statistics unless you have reason to believe that you are somehow special and they don't apply to you, you can't assume they don't.

I'm amazed that people ignore research that supports that SAH/WOH aren't determinants of how our kids turn out and hold to the belief that it matters with NOTHING to support that. Says a lot doesn't it???
Sigh. I'm not digging it up now, but I took you to task in one of the other threads on this about playing fast and loose with the conclusions you're drawing from these studies. LKB has correctly taken you to task for it as well.

It is foolish to insist that group trends be applied to individual cases. Social science stats talk about increased likelihood- your conclusions sound as if they are set in stone. What are the characteristics of the sample on the CD parenting forum? What are the characteristics of the specific studies you are citing? Not all of them are nationally representative, I remember that much from last time we did this.

I'm not saying there's a problem with the research. At all. I have no problem with research finding no differences in an array of outcome measures for kids of working or SAHMs. I think that's great - it gives us all more choice in making our decisions as mothers. What I have a problem with is the way you present your conclusions (which I beleive consistently overreach what the data say) and how much certainty you ascribe to something that inherently deals in probabilities. Statistics don't lie. People do.

ETA: I find what your DIL is saying to you and especially to your daughters absolutely abhorrent. I don't blame you in the least for being insanely frustrated by her behavior; IMO it is way over the line. Listen to the advice about "you are not going to change her mind or even get her to shut up, most likely." Address it with your daughters, and with your daughter's therapist.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:38 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 34,966,446 times
Reputation: 42368
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Ok, prove it matters. How will my children turn out differently than the children of a SAHM?
What people seem to point out in these threads is that stay at home made a difference to their own children. Not "My kids are better than yours" but "I think my kids turned out better than they would have if I worked." And that is a purely subjective opinion that nobody can disprove because it is based on individual circumstances.

I'm sorry to point out the obvious, but if you had stayed home, your older daughter wouldn't be able to gripe at you for "never being there." I am not saying you should have stayed home--she might gripe at you for "never leaving me alone" or "not being able to afford such-and-such." Nobody knows the future or how those hypothetical situations would turn out. But something would be different with your daughter, don't you think? Not necessarily better or worse, but different?

I agree with whoever compared your daughter-in-law's stance to zealotry. She's not going to change her mind anymore than you are going to change yours. You don't know why she's a zealot. If she can't keep her zeal of your kids, then she doesn't get to be around them. I'd agree with that just as I'd agree if she were telling them they were going to hell for whatever reason. But with the insistence that you bang this drum, it really doesn't sound like this is ALL one-sided.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:42 PM
 
Location: here
24,469 posts, read 28,723,874 times
Reputation: 31039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
You said I was insisting my way was right. I never said that. You put words in my mouth to make your argument. I don't think one is better than the other. I think that maternal working status is irrelevent beyond the financial impact. I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm insisting I'm right. The only thing I'm insisting is that WM's don't hurt their kids. Heck we often help them by working if we're positively impacting our family's SES.
You think it is better because it raises your SES, so you DO think it is better, even if only for that reason.
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:44 PM
 
11,229 posts, read 9,225,730 times
Reputation: 14654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
You think it is better because it raises your SES, so you DO think it is better, even if only for that reason.
What is SES?
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,651,862 times
Reputation: 19408
Clearly, I'm not the only one who really doesn't give a sh*t about statistics, especially when it comes to my family. I do what I KNOW or FEEL is best for my family.....based on my experience. I couldn't give a sh*t whether the statistics were saying I was actually hurting my children, by staying at home with them. What I'd be thinking is, "Who in the h*ll is funding this research? Clearly, someone who has a great deal to gain, by getting more people out in the workforce, paying more taxes!!"
 
Old 01-23-2012, 05:45 PM
 
Location: here
24,469 posts, read 28,723,874 times
Reputation: 31039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Ok, prove it matters. How will my children turn out differently than the children of a SAHM? I've issued this challenge before and it's always ignored. Let's stand our 25 year old children next to each other and you tell me what will be different between my kids and the kids who had a SAHM.

Something doesn't matter just because you want to believe it matters. You need an actual reason to believe it matters. I turn to research to find that matters and what doesn't.
Personally, I'm glad it doesn't matter becaues that means this is a true choice. Neither side is hurting their kids. It's just a financial decision.
The fact that you have to turn to research to support your decision says a ton. The rest of us look at how our kids act and feel, how we feel, how our husbands feel, and what we want as a couple, as a family and as an individual. I never doubted my decision enough to look for statistical support.
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