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Speaking of college, let's say you have a child who wants to major in art, philosophy, dance or French. Would you encourage them to take on a double major in something that might actually help them get a job, such as economics or Biology?
Actually the Ivy's have gone to income based tuition so if you make under $75 K for some or under $60K for others you pay nothing to attend. If you make under $180K you pay 10% of your AGI and your loans are converted into grants for the most part. Harvard's average student loan dept upon graduation is $7000, Cornell caps theirs at $7500. The Ivy's are the most affordable schools in the nation now for 99% of the people.
Yes they do Golfgal. They can be the most affordable choice if you have a truly extraordinary student. IF your child is accepted.
The competition is tremendous. The level of scholarship required is backbreaking. And earning UNDER $75 thousand per year, is in some areas "disadvantaged." Not where I currently live in Wilkes-Barre PA, but it does pretty much rule out most families from the coasts, two parent families, and MY family! We are far from wealthy, and would not make this cut.
One could still be of very modest means, earn around a combined $100K in Long Island NY or another NYC or Phillie suburb, and this might as well be the Holy Grail for you and your child.
One can accomplish almost full scholarship in a number of ways.
That is one, but there are other well endowed colleges and universities.
golfgal is 100% correct on the cost of the Ivy's. If you have the ability to get in and are from an average family you will most likely have your entire education, or at least the vast majority of it paid for. There is almost no reason for a good student to NOT try and apply to one of the Ivy's.
The issue comes when you start looking at non-Ivy private schools and are an average middle-class family. Schools like Notre Dame, Boston College, Amherst, Swarthmore, Wellesley, Duke, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, etc. Are all fantastic schools, but they all cost an arm and a leg. They have high admittance standards and look nice on a resume, but the average student and their family will end up with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt.
Compared to these top tier private schools, there are many fantastic public universities that are FAR more affordable and give you almost the same education. When they look at the earning potential of someone who went to say Duke compared to someone who went to Penn State, what they find is that the Duke grad most likely NEVER earns back the cost premium of their education.
I was fortunate in that I got into a good private school and had the majority of it paid for with sports scholarships. My degree looks impressive, but I sit in an office full of public university grads who make just as much as I do. Had I paid out of pocket for my education it would have been an immense waste.
Another major consideration is that while most kids won't know their major or what they want to do with their life going in, they do need some idea. Anything in the hard sciences like engineering, medical, bio-sciences, etc. is going to require careful selection of schools so that you end up somewhere with a competitive program. Almost all of these fields require graduate work and coming from a highly regarded undergrad program makes the next step that much easier. This may be the case where a top private school may be worth the money in the long run.
In general liberal arts students have far more selection and that selection is less important. These students are going to generally be much better served at public schools for their undergrad work as long as that school has a decent program. If they end up in a field that requires graduate level work then they should pick the school with the best program and spend the money for it as that will most likely pay itself back.
The final consideration is what kind of school will the kid do well in? Many kids will not thrive in a large university where they are just a number, but instead need a smaller environment. On the other hand, some kids will feel stifled in a small school and crave the large university appeal.
On the topic of community vs. straight to four year, I think that is really dependent on the kid and what they want. I wouldn't send an otherwise "ready" kid to community just because they didn't know what they want to be, because they won't find it there. However, a kid that is not really "ready" or struggled in high school may be much better served at community and earning their associates before possibly moving onto a four year school.
So, it really all comes down to the kid.
If I have a kid who is driven and passionate to be a doctor or lawyer and they have the grades to get them into a top private school it will most likely be worth the cost to send them.
If I have a kid who thinks that they maybe have an interest in English Literature, there is no way in HELL I am paying for them to go to Vanderbilt, you can read all the English Lit you want at the state school. If you want Vanderbilt, you better have a scholarship that will cover it.
I am going to disagree slightly about the Ivy levels, specifically Notre Dame. That is on our son's list--his dream school. They meet 100% of your demonstrated financial need so, depending on your income, it can be very affordable because you won't need to take outside loans to help fund your education there. Say your expected family contribution is $10,000, Notre Dame kicks in grants and scholarships to meet that above the federal loan cap ($27,000 for 4 years) so if you max out your student loans, you will graduate with about $27,000 in student loan debt but that is it. Compare that to a similar cost institution that doesn't meet your 100% EFC, you will have the $27,000 plus whatever else the school didn't cover so maybe another $10-20K or whatever. I don't know about the other schools you have listed because we haven't looked into them.
We know several kids going to Notre Dame right now and according to their parents, their aid packages were very generous and put the in line with what it would have cost their kids to go to a state school so don't discount them until you see your aid package. Happy alumni make for nice financial aid packages (as does top notch football teams...).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow
How do you go about finding out of a particular program is strong or not? Are they ranked somewhere, or is it just reputation?
Depends on the program but usually you can find some kind of ranking or statistic that is used by similar programs at various schools. Our son wants to be an actuary so there is college program information on the National Association of Actuaries website (or whatever that association is called). Our daughter wants to go into medicine so medical school acceptance rates are what we are looking at as one factor. The one school she looked at only has a 50% acceptance rate compared to the 90-100% at other schools. Now, some schools don't give recommendations for all of their students so not everyone that wants to apply can, but that is ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimme it
Speaking of college, let's say you have a child who wants to major in art, philosophy, dance or French. Would you encourage them to take on a double major in something that might actually help them get a job, such as economics or Biology?
I would. Last year our son was all gung ho on being a History major, fine, dandy, get something to go with that so you can get a job. Since he has switched to being an actuary, he is going to minor in history or possibly get a major in that depending on where he ends up. He will also probably get a major in Spanish because he will come into college with 2 years of college level Spanish and won't have to take all that many classes to get a major.
I am going to disagree slightly about the Ivy levels, specifically Notre Dame. That is on our son's list--his dream school. They meet 100% of your demonstrated financial need so, depending on your income, it can be very affordable because you won't need to take outside loans to help fund your education there. Say your expected family contribution is $10,000, Notre Dame kicks in grants and scholarships to meet that above the federal loan cap ($27,000 for 4 years) so if you max out your student loans, you will graduate with about $27,000 in student loan debt but that is it. Compare that to a similar cost institution that doesn't meet your 100% EFC, you will have the $27,000 plus whatever else the school didn't cover so maybe another $10-20K or whatever. I don't know about the other schools you have listed because we haven't looked into them.
We know several kids going to Notre Dame right now and according to their parents, their aid packages were very generous and put the in line with what it would have cost their kids to go to a state school so don't discount them until you see your aid package. Happy alumni make for nice financial aid packages (as does top notch football teams...).
I didn't realize ND was that generous. I know most of the other ones I listed aren't. I think what ends up killing most people is the smaller private liberal arts colleges.
The only thing I would really argue with you on is the "top notch football team" part. As a BC grad I just can't accept that ND has a "top notch" football team, lol.
Depends on the state- some state school systems have excellent options.
That's true Golfgal. I originally began college at Clark University in MA (private very competitive) left to spend time with my mother (she had cancer, and passed in what would have been my senior year) and finished at Stony Brook University (an NYS university that is highly competitive) My experience at each was wonderful, BTW.
At one time, the State Universities in NY, my home state, and in many other states, had an open admission policy for in state students.
This is no longer true. It ended, with the advent of community colleges.
Some of the finest schools in our country are public research universities. Berkley, UCLA, UNC Chapel Hill, University of Virginia, Binghamton University in NY State, and a shameless plug, Stony Brook University.
By contrast, this country is FULL of expensive, small, liberal arts colleges that will let almost anyone in and have no money to spare.
However, if the words "Private Education" are still synonymous with achievement, and you want to sound good at the country club, New England is filled with expensive, small ignominious colleges, with pretty brick buildings, winding Autumn leaf strewn paths, chimes that ring on the hour and yes, IVY - lots and lots of ivy.
Speaking of college, let's say you have a child who wants to major in art, philosophy, dance or French. Would you encourage them to take on a double major in something that might actually help them get a job, such as economics or Biology?
Absolutely. If they want something that "soft" then they should double major in something useful like business or education. Probably the best companion degree to those would be education as they could parlay their "passion" degree into teaching. Ultimately if this is the direction they wanted to take, this is an example where I wouldn't support them in choosing a high priced school. Those degrees can just as easily be earned at much more affordable places and net the same result in the long run.
golfgal is 100% correct on the cost of the Ivy's. If you have the ability to get in and are from an average family you will most likely have your entire education, or at least the vast majority of it paid for. There is almost no reason for a good student to NOT try and apply to one of the Ivy's.
The issue comes when you start looking at non-Ivy private schools and are an average middle-class family. Schools like Notre Dame, Boston College, Amherst, Swarthmore, Wellesley, Duke, Georgetown, Vanderbilt, etc. Are all fantastic schools, but they all cost an arm and a leg. They have high admittance standards and look nice on a resume, but the average student and their family will end up with tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt.
Compared to these top tier private schools, there are many fantastic public universities that are FAR more affordable and give you almost the same education. When they look at the earning potential of someone who went to say Duke compared to someone who went to Penn State, what they find is that the Duke grad most likely NEVER earns back the cost premium of their education.
I was fortunate in that I got into a good private school and had the majority of it paid for with sports scholarships. My degree looks impressive, but I sit in an office full of public university grads who make just as much as I do. Had I paid out of pocket for my education it would have been an immense waste.
Another major consideration is that while most kids won't know their major or what they want to do with their life going in, they do need some idea. Anything in the hard sciences like engineering, medical, bio-sciences, etc. is going to require careful selection of schools so that you end up somewhere with a competitive program. Almost all of these fields require graduate work and coming from a highly regarded undergrad program makes the next step that much easier. This may be the case where a top private school may be worth the money in the long run.
In general liberal arts students have far more selection and that selection is less important. These students are going to generally be much better served at public schools for their undergrad work as long as that school has a decent program. If they end up in a field that requires graduate level work then they should pick the school with the best program and spend the money for it as that will most likely pay itself back.
The final consideration is what kind of school will the kid do well in? Many kids will not thrive in a large university where they are just a number, but instead need a smaller environment. On the other hand, some kids will feel stifled in a small school and crave the large university appeal.
On the topic of community vs. straight to four year, I think that is really dependent on the kid and what they want. I wouldn't send an otherwise "ready" kid to community just because they didn't know what they want to be, because they won't find it there. However, a kid that is not really "ready" or struggled in high school may be much better served at community and earning their associates before possibly moving onto a four year school.
So, it really all comes down to the kid.
If I have a kid who is driven and passionate to be a doctor or lawyer and they have the grades to get them into a top private school it will most likely be worth the cost to send them.
If I have a kid who thinks that they maybe have an interest in English Literature, there is no way in HELL I am paying for them to go to Vanderbilt, you can read all the English Lit you want at the state school. If you want Vanderbilt, you better have a scholarship that will cover it.
I agree with the first part of the post, and if I knew how to highlight, I would
There are a whole slew of excellent and well regarded colleges and universities that are not "Ivy League" that may in fact be a better fit for some students that some Ivies.
I am a huge fan of many of these schools, and for my money, I PREFER many of them to most Ivy League colleges.
That is where a middle class parent will have the most difficulty, financially.
There is also an economic strategy that no one seems to want to talk about (including my sister who is driving my niece like a rented mule to get that Ivy League under 75K thing) and that is, applying to colleges that are one notch or two UNDER what your child could attain.
I am not talking about slacker schools, but some fine liberal arts colleges. Not all are well known. Some are in the mid-west. Worth exploring. There are some GEMS there!
It never ceases to amaze me how many parents do not think out side the box.
"The Box" in this case 1. Local colleges
2. State Colleges in your state
3. community college
4. Ivy League colleges
5. colleges with well regarded football teams
Has any one seen how thick a copy of "The Best 367 Colleges" is?
I didn't realize ND was that generous. I know most of the other ones I listed aren't. I think what ends up killing most people is the smaller private liberal arts colleges.
The only thing I would really argue with you on is the "top notch football team" part. As a BC grad I just can't accept that ND has a "top notch" football team, lol.
Ok, since Lou Holtz left, no, they haven't been at the top of their game but they still bring in a LOT of revenue for ND .
I will disagree with the smaller liberal arts schools. There are many of them around that have very generous aid packages. You do have to do some research though but like I said, until you get your final aid package, every school is expensive.
I agree with the first part of the post, and if I knew how to highlight, I would
There are a whole slew of excellent and well regarded colleges and universities that are not "Ivy League" that may in fact be a better fit for some students that some Ivies.
I am a huge fan of many of these schools, and for my money, I PREFER many of them to most Ivy League colleges.
That is where a middle class parent will have the most difficulty, financially.
There is also an economic strategy that no one seems to want to talk about (including my sister who is driving my niece like a rented mule to get that Ivy League under 75K thing) and that is, applying to colleges that are one notch or two UNDER what your child could attain.
I am not talking about slacker schools, but some fine liberal arts colleges. Not all are well known. Some are in the mid-west. Worth exploring. There are some GEMS there!
It never ceases to amaze me how many parents do not think out side the box.
"The Box" in this case 1. Local colleges
2. State Colleges in your state
3. community college
4. Ivy League colleges
5. colleges with well regarded football teams
Has any one seen how thick a copy of "The Best 367 Colleges" is?
This is a very good point. If you have a great student coming into a good school (not great but good) often those schools are VERY generous to those students. Our kids are looking at a well respected liberal arts school here, they already qualify for a huge scholarship from them based on grades/test scores which brings the cost of that school below the state university and that is without showing any "need", simply academic aid.
Ok, since Lou Holtz left, no, they haven't been at the top of their game but they still bring in a LOT of revenue for ND .
I will disagree with the smaller liberal arts schools. There are many of them around that have very generous aid packages. You do have to do some research though but like I said, until you get your final aid package, every school is expensive.
I agree that until the final aid package is put together, one doesn't really know what one is dealing with. IME, granted this was awhile ago, there is a bit of a disconnect between what the schools think (or calculate) the family contribution should be and what financial contribution is actually feasible for the family. There were several private schools I was accepted into, including Ivies, that even with academic scholarships and aid were still too expensive to be viable options for me compared to state schools (which turned out to provide an excellent environment for my academic goals so for me, it was all for the best). Maybe things have changed in the past 15 years. Certainly, every family situation is different.
I think it's great for kids to apply to a broad range and as you rightly say see what the final aid package says. Why limit oneself right off the bat? As a former disappointed kid, though, I would be really clear up front what the financial realities are, if that makes sense.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 01-19-2012 at 01:13 PM..
Reason: Not trying to sound like a self-aggrandizing pompous ass
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Not where I currently live in Wilkes-Barre PA, but it does pretty much rule out most families from the coasts, two parent families, and MY family! We are far from wealthy, and would not make this cut.
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