U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-05-2012, 09:41 AM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
27,525 posts, read 15,203,890 times
Reputation: 20992

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Please don't put words in my mouth.

No, I'm saying that professionally successful people push their kids. I didn't put a dollar amount on this.
I will say that when we shared a babysitter with friends of ours (both doctors; both from another country) ~ they pushed their kids MUCH harder than I pushed mine. T

Say .. there was a snow day and they were all going to babysitters house looking forward to a fun day of sled riding. The doctor's young son always came with some math problems made up by his father - some extra work - so there really was no day off. He always had him to additional work in addition to what was given at school.

Sometimes I felt sorry for him though; he was really pushed - but his parents were super nice people and doing what they thought was best for him. Sports were not a priority but academics certainly were.

Will this boy turn out to make more money than mine? He might well. Will he be more successful at life? Not necessarily and since physical activity was not a priority - he is not as fit.

I don't know. That's just one example. But it's always stuck with me ~ ok this is why this kid is going to be a doctor and mine wants to be a physical therapist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-05-2012, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,817,769 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 View Post
I will say that when we shared a babysitter with friends of ours (both doctors; both from another country) ~ they pushed their kids MUCH harder than I pushed mine. T

Say .. there was a snow day and they were all going to babysitters house looking forward to a fun day of sled riding. The doctor's young son always came with some math problems made up by his father - some extra work - so there really was no day off. He always had him to additional work in addition to what was given at school.

Sometimes I felt sorry for him though; he was really pushed - but his parents were super nice people and doing what they thought was best for him. Sports were not a priority but academics certainly were.

Will this boy turn out to make more money than mine? He might well. Will he be more successful at life? Not necessarily and since physical activity was not a priority - he is not as fit.

I don't know. That's just one example. But it's always stuck with me ~ ok this is why this kid is going to be a doctor and mine wants to be a physical therapist.
The kids of doctors are the ones I see pushed the hardest. Seriously, if you're inclined towards the profession, it will take a lot to get through med school so it makes sense. I've never really pushed my kids but my youngest dd wants to be a doctor and has the potential so that is changing. It's changing because I know that she will have to push herself to get through med school so she might as well learn how to do that now. I don't want her ill prepared for med school because no one ever pushed her before. I would be failing at my job as her mother if I let that happen. So she got told she needs to pull her GPA up and more than one B a semester is not acceptable. Her goals are high. Parental pushing needs to match them until it's her pushing herself.

I get it. The parents want the kids to do what made them successful. I'm not successful. I've always been in the I have a job category not the I excell at my career category. I can see, thought, that if I were, I'd likely push my kids to do the things I did to succeed. After all, acorns do not fall far from the tree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-05-2012, 10:52 AM
 
9,057 posts, read 6,762,623 times
Reputation: 11013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The kids of doctors are the ones I see pushed the hardest. Seriously, if you're inclined towards the profession, it will take a lot to get through med school so it makes sense. I've never really pushed my kids but my youngest dd wants to be a doctor and has the potential so that is changing. It's changing because I know that she will have to push herself to get through med school so she might as well learn how to do that now. I don't want her ill prepared for med school because no one ever pushed her before. I would be failing at my job as her mother if I let that happen. So she got told she needs to pull her GPA up and more than one B a semester is not acceptable. Her goals are high. Parental pushing needs to match them until it's her pushing herself.

I get it. The parents want the kids to do what made them successful. I'm not successful. I've always been in the I have a job category not the I excell at my career category. I can see, thought, that if I were, I'd likely push my kids to do the things I did to succeed. After all, acorns do not fall far from the tree.
That's really not true. I've seen many acorns that are so far from the tree you wouldn't know what kind of tree they fell from.

Honestly, not all children are like their parents. Some aren't even remotely like them. Sometimes children are pushed to be like them, when it's obvious they're polar opposites. Children are individuals, not clones of their parents.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-05-2012, 11:04 AM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,971,555 times
Reputation: 3823
Late to the party, didn't read the whole thread, but can't help talking.

To respond the OP:

- I hear your pain and I see what you see out there. Not in all areas, of course, as there is still a large lower-middle to lower class completely oblivious to the notion of "pushing" children or even understanding what "gifted" is supposed to be or sound like. But middle to upper-middle class? Yes. Many are struggling to catch a glimpse, if only a glimpse!! - of gifted-ness in their children.

- Although the knee jerk reaction is to feel resentment and squeamish-n ess towards such parents, I have learned to think macro and understand what happens in their subconscious. I can no longer feel 100% judgemental towards them. Only 80%. Like the flawed and emotive human that I am, I still sense the obnoxiousness, I still think they make a bitter and nastier world through their competitiveness; but I also understand what's happening in their brains. I used to think it is just a question of ego and entitelment. "I am so special hence my child will be so special". I am not denying some of these upper-middle class parents may be the perfect Narcissists. But this is an explanation too simplistic for me to buy whole sale.
- Every time this topic comes up, I can't help thinking of William Catton's "Bottleneck". He says it all there the way it actually is. Not about parenting. The "giftedness" epidemic is only one of the thousands of symptoms of a much larger condition.
This is about what is currently happening to us - to all of us, 7 billion ravenous souls on a finite surface. Like this guy so simply and elegantly put it:

1. There are 3 times as many humans on this Earth at the beginning of the 21st century as there were in the begining of the 20th century.

2. These humans have 5 times or more the consumption appetites their early 20th century counterparts did.

3. Many work opportunities for these average humans have simply been replaced by machines. The few opportunities that are left tend to be highly specialized, high-skilled, high-IQ occupations. How many times have you heard mass-media yelling that there are "plenty" of opportunities in high-tech industries and that employers sometimes can't even find what they need despite plenty of unemployment?

Here are a few stats for you:

The majority of new college grads in the US today are either unemployed or working jobs that don't require a degree (aka "sucky jobs"). In 2011 about 85% of them moved back home with the parents where they sit on an average debt of 30,000 dollars or so.

So...the question would be: seriously????
You can't understand why there is a "giftedness" epidemic? Or the desperate parental attempt to make it real - even when it is not?

They say the species is smarter than the individual - and I think "they" are right. Most middle to upper-middle class parents don't rationalize based on such stats, but the alarm in their guts is ringing loud and clear. They know there are very few chances that their children will leave the decent lives that they got a chance to live; and deep down, most of us are still wired to want a good, secure life for our children; at least as good as we've had it or more.

But coincidentally, most people are of average intellect. They do not have the creative and speculative genius of Steve Jobs, Bills Gates or Zuckerman to play with technology and turn it into gold; and most people are not even good at being little entrepreneurs, to count on the idea of maybe running a small business in the future, hence not needing a job from someone else; and even if some people do have some entreprenuerial talent, the chances for their business to not be eaten alive by giants are objectively pathetic.

There used to be room under the sun for averge Joes. It used to be OK to NOT aspire to be gloriously succesful. People used to work average but relatively secure jobs, lived average lives, certainly devoid of glory, but at least they used to not fear their lives would completely fall apart from one year to the next.

Given this picture, what do you think this generation of middle to upper-middle class parents will do? They will frantically push the children in the hope that THEIRS and not another child will be the one to grab one of the few high-skill or creativity-based opportunities that the future will make available.

Let's face it: our species no longer needs average meat. We have little use for the masses of average IQ, average skill individuals. Machinery can easily do what these average individuals used to do. We have encouraged the masses to breed but we have not made provisions for what these masses will do if they somehow can't pull off the high IQ-s and the giftedness to serve the high-tech needs of the Lords.

In conclusion, I am not blaming any particular group here - not even the "epidemic" creators for their obnoxiousness.
Well, yeah...in the large scheme of things, I could blame the highly invisible Lords who live lives that seem to "beg the world to line them all up against a wall and erase the entire parasitical group of them" - as this apparently super smart guy called Stephen Marche beautifully writes in Esquire. Or perhaps I could blame the groups that have built this completely mental ideology of "momism", extolling to the High Heavens the act of birthing for the sake of ...well...birthing.

But what would be the use?

I am just thinking that perhaps understanding what's REALLY going on might at least help with the squeamishness that these parents will continue to cause you - or that we will continue to cause each other.

Last edited by syracusa; 02-05-2012 at 11:12 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2013, 08:21 PM
 
Location: S. Charlotte
1,511 posts, read 2,806,128 times
Reputation: 669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
I have never heard the parents of truly "gifted" children discuss their children's abilities.
This is very true!

It's usually the parents talking about giftedness all over the place and constantly whose kids may not quite be there at that level.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2013, 09:08 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,817,769 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
I have never heard the parents of truly "gifted" children discuss their children's abilities.
They'll only discuss them with you if there's a reason. Is there a reason parents of gifted children would talk to you about their children?

I know all about my neice and nephews because I'm their aunt. I also understand my sisters' concerns because I have a gifted child (not nearly as gifted as one of my nephews). There's a lot of water to navigate. Do you start them in school early or not? Do you enrich at home or not? Do you allow a double promotion or not? Do you use diversion activities or not? If you ask six parents of gifted kids, you'll get six different answers. We're all trying to figure out what is best for our kids but there's no crystal ball to tell us what to do.

My nephew is, by far, the most gifted child in the family. You can hear the concern in my brother's voice when he talks about what he's doing now and not being able to get him to play like normal kids. We wonder how our kids will fit in. What are the pitfalls of being the youngest child in your grade. Whether they'll be ready for college if we allow graduation at 16. Should we push or not? There are too many ways to go wrong here. However, we're not going to ask you if you don't have something to offer and we're not going to tell you without reason. I YOU met my brother, he probably wouldn't tell you even has a son let alone how rediculously smart he is. He has no reaon to tell you.

Parents of gifted children talk. We talk a lot. We just don't bother talking to people we have no reason to talk to. IRL, I wouldn't mention that dd is gifted to anyone who did not need to know. She doesn't need labels to live up to. More than anything I want her to have a normal life.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2013, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,817,769 times
Reputation: 14503
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
That's really not true. I've seen many acorns that are so far from the tree you wouldn't know what kind of tree they fell from.

Honestly, not all children are like their parents. Some aren't even remotely like them. Sometimes children are pushed to be like them, when it's obvious they're polar opposites. Children are individuals, not clones of their parents.
I can show you example after example in the high school in which I teach. I hear we have 8 validictorians this year. All students with 4.0 GPA's in a very competitive school. All you have to do is drive through the neighborhoods and look at the houses to realize that the acorns did not fall far from the tree.

My own family is a prime example. Half of my siblings are gifted and half of their children are gifted. Am I supposed to believe that is a coincidence?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2013, 07:54 AM
 
11,617 posts, read 19,792,506 times
Reputation: 12056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Parents of gifted children talk. We talk a lot. We just don't bother talking to people we have no reason to talk to. IRL, I wouldn't mention that dd is gifted to anyone who did not need to know. She doesn't need labels to live up to. More than anything I want her to have a normal life.
I agree with this statement. It is hard to raise gifted kids. All of my kids were in gifted classes when they were at the public charter school for elementary school. We moved them to a private school because the gifted programs at the public schools around here are merely more work with some acceleration. Gifted kids need LESS work, not more. They need DIFFERENT work, not just more.

Of course, that move was perceived by others to be elitist. It was perceived by others that we were saying our kids were "too good" for public school. Of course, that isn't why we moved them but people perceive things they way THEY see them, not the way we do. We moved them because we wanted them to have a normal life. We wanted them to be able to participate in sports, music, theater, art and whatever else they enjoy the way normal kids do and they were never going to be able to do that in the public school gifted program because of the way they bog gifted kids down with tons and tons of busywork.

As a parent of truly gifted kids it is hard to explain to other parents that your child does not need the repetition provided by the public schools. No matter how you say it you sound like a snob. So if you are smart you avoid the subject altogether and talk about other things. It would actually be nice to talk with other parents about the educational needs of my kids.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2013, 10:09 AM
 
2,159 posts, read 3,747,841 times
Reputation: 2136
Fall River, Massachusetts:

Durfee graduation rate slightly better after state education department 'technical error' - Fall River, MA - The Herald News


Barely 80% graduation rate. Freaking ridiculous. It is why I send my son to private school here. The teachers don't care and even worse, the parent's don't care.



Quote:
Originally Posted by west seattle gal View Post
Almost every white or Asian native English speaking child in my city is gifted, or at least that is what one would gather after talking to most of the parents. A substantial number of kids are even "twice gifted", or suffer from having both a high IQ and a learning disability. The gifted child is usually identified in preschool -- sensitive temperament, profound insight/statements, irritation to tags in clothing, struggling social skills, perhaps a gluten tolerance, and early reading. Usually they are bored in school, and once they start K or 1st, parents are upset with the public school system b/c there is not enough resources directed towards their very special child. They often become vocal advocates for segregated education, gifted vs non-gifted-identified.

God, hear me *scream*. This kind of parent drives me nuts, and they are everywhere. Public, private, every kind of school in Seattle. Somehow I have even ended up in spontaneous conversations at the vet and grocery store w/ people wanting to let me know that their child is gifted, but school birthday parties are the worst. I dread school functions b/c of the parent population. I appreciate that parents place an emphasis on the importance of education & stay involved w/ their kids' schools, but *please* this is ridiculous. Less than 1% of the U.S. (or world's) population is technically gifted, and they can't possibly all live in Seattle or go to my child's school.

I know that this gifted obsession is a function of having a high concentration of well-educated, successful parents. Parents who focus every moment and dime on their child's learning, including utilizing flash cards, tutors, and all kinds of educational systems from an early age (of COURSE a child reads early when someone takes the time to teach them). From it extends a self-centeredness and sense of entitlement. I have heard that NYC also has this element. Is this type of thing present in your city, too?

I would really like to know which cities (if any) are different. Perhaps we'll consider moving there!

Can't parents be educated and laid-back?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2013, 10:18 AM
 
49,185 posts, read 39,637,057 times
Reputation: 30806
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagomichauds View Post
This is very true!

It's usually the parents talking about giftedness all over the place and constantly whose kids may not quite be there at that level.
If you used to be in Chicago, this was a big problem in some of the burbs...especially Naperville and parts of the north and northwestern burbs. It wasn't just giftedness academically though, it was everything. I had friends in baseball leagues etc. saying teams from those areas had some of the worst parents in terms of yelling at their kids, yelling at opposing teams kids and all around acting like jerks.

I have 2 kids that are academically gifted. One in particular is honestly on track to get into about any school in the country. I don't say a peep about it though. Unlike where I grew up, academics is pretty touted around here and the top students are acknowledged a lot better where when I was in highschool it was only athletics.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Parenting
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top