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I'm talking accomplishment. You know, people who actually do something with their lives. The general indicators of success. Educated, successful professionals or, as is often the case in my district, just born into a successful family. I teach a lot of kids whose fathers are CEO's, Surgeons, lawyers and engineers. I see them pushing their kids to aim higher. Not that that's a bad thing. Apples don't fall far from the tree. If mom and dad were successful by aiming higher, chances are the kids can be too.
Those professions also have the highest share of psychopaths, there was a study on that, you can google it.
Late to the party, didn't read the whole thread, but can't help talking.
To respond the OP:
- I hear your pain and I see what you see out there. Not in all areas, of course, as there is still a large lower-middle to lower class completely oblivious to the notion of "pushing" children or even understanding what "gifted" is supposed to be or sound like. But middle to upper-middle class? Yes. Many are struggling to catch a glimpse, if only a glimpse!! - of gifted-ness in their children.
- Although the knee jerk reaction is to feel resentment and squeamish-n ess towards such parents, I have learned to think macro and understand what happens in their subconscious. I can no longer feel 100% judgemental towards them. Only 80%. Like the flawed and emotive human that I am, I still sense the obnoxiousness, I still think they make a bitter and nastier world through their competitiveness; but I also understand what's happening in their brains. I used to think it is just a question of ego and entitelment. "I am so special hence my child will be so special". I am not denying some of these upper-middle class parents may be the perfect Narcissists. But this is an explanation too simplistic for me to buy whole sale.
- Every time this topic comes up, I can't help thinking of William Catton's "Bottleneck". He says it all there the way it actually is. Not about parenting. The "giftedness" epidemic is only one of the thousands of symptoms of a much larger condition.
This is about what is currently happening to us - to all of us, 7 billion ravenous souls on a finite surface. Like this guy so simply and elegantly put it:
1. There are 3 times as many humans on this Earth at the beginning of the 21st century as there were in the begining of the 20th century.
2. These humans have 5 times or more the consumption appetites their early 20th century counterparts did.
3. Many work opportunities for these average humans have simply been replaced by machines. The few opportunities that are left tend to be highly specialized, high-skilled, high-IQ occupations. How many times have you heard mass-media yelling that there are "plenty" of opportunities in high-tech industries and that employers sometimes can't even find what they need despite plenty of unemployment?
Here are a few stats for you:
The majority of new college grads in the US today are either unemployed or working jobs that don't require a degree (aka "sucky jobs"). In 2011 about 85% of them moved back home with the parents where they sit on an average debt of 30,000 dollars or so.
So...the question would be: seriously????
You can't understand why there is a "giftedness" epidemic? Or the desperate parental attempt to make it real - even when it is not?
They say the species is smarter than the individual - and I think "they" are right. Most middle to upper-middle class parents don't rationalize based on such stats, but the alarm in their guts is ringing loud and clear. They know there are very few chances that their children will leave the decent lives that they got a chance to live; and deep down, most of us are still wired to want a good, secure life for our children; at least as good as we've had it or more.
But coincidentally, most people are of average intellect. They do not have the creative and speculative genius of Steve Jobs, Bills Gates or Zuckerman to play with technology and turn it into gold; and most people are not even good at being little entrepreneurs, to count on the idea of maybe running a small business in the future, hence not needing a job from someone else; and even if some people do have some entreprenuerial talent, the chances for their business to not be eaten alive by giants are objectively pathetic.
There used to be room under the sun for averge Joes. It used to be OK to NOT aspire to be gloriously succesful. People used to work average but relatively secure jobs, lived average lives, certainly devoid of glory, but at least they used to not fear their lives would completely fall apart from one year to the next.
Given this picture, what do you think this generation of middle to upper-middle class parents will do? They will frantically push the children in the hope that THEIRS and not another child will be the one to grab one of the few high-skill or creativity-based opportunities that the future will make available.
Let's face it: our species no longer needs average meat. We have little use for the masses of average IQ, average skill individuals. Machinery can easily do what these average individuals used to do. We have encouraged the masses to breed but we have not made provisions for what these masses will do if they somehow can't pull off the high IQ-s and the giftedness to serve the high-tech needs of the Lords.
In conclusion, I am not blaming any particular group here - not even the "epidemic" creators for their obnoxiousness.
Well, yeah...in the large scheme of things, I could blame the highly invisible Lords who live lives that seem to "beg the world to line them all up against a wall and erase the entire parasitical group of them" - as this apparently super smart guy called Stephen Marche beautifully writes in Esquire. Or perhaps I could blame the groups that have built this completely mental ideology of "momism", extolling to the High Heavens the act of birthing for the sake of ...well...birthing.
But what would be the use?
I am just thinking that perhaps understanding what's REALLY going on might at least help with the squeamishness that these parents will continue to cause you - or that we will continue to cause each other.
While you are being hysterical, other parents are able to see the bigger picture, or the reality which is - all people need and spend money on a multitude of goods and services, and not just on IT. And somebody needs to provide them, and can make a living doing it.
In about 15 years or whenever the new batch of kids graduates there is going to be a brand new hot field in need of more workforce. Who knows if there is not going to be a bubble of IT degrees, just like it happened with the prior fads - lawyers and bankers.
Intelligence will seek out for ways to challenge itself. If you have to push them they are not truly gifted.
Regardless of "truly gifted" parents are going to expose their children in different ways depending on who the parents are, their own level of education, and success. My best friend is a lit teacher and a writer. Her husband is also a writer and owns a production co. Their daughter, who has an IQ in the 140s, excels in verbal/language and is a bit lacking in maths. That's not really surprising. They have a literary household. My husband and I are both in the sciences. Our daughter is going to have greater exposure to the maths and sciences and it won't be surprising if that's where she excels. Environment matters.
I don't know how far a parent would have to go to be considered pushing, but the way I figure it most people of average intelligence should do very well in the maths and sciences. There is no reason for mediocre grades (at least not as far as intelligence goes) and effort through out life if a child is emotionally, physically, and intellectually healthy. Although I do know that an improper environment won't help, and can even harm a child, so I don't know if a kid could have the wherewithal to push themselves out of environment. It's up the parents to provide, to set expectations, to teach, etc.
Those professions also have the highest share of psychopaths, there was a study on that, you can google it.
Given some of the behavior I see at parent teacher conferences, I'd believe that . I had a father threatening to stroke out at the last confernce because his daughter had a B+ in my class and that was going to RUIN her future. She wouldn't get into the right college, or have the right career. I mean this man was literally red in the face with veins popping out of his neck mad over her B+ and it was ALL MY FAULT. I was RUINING his child's life. Some parents I see are scary.
However, the point stands. Success breeds success. Kids of successful parents usually succeed in school and life. Acorns, usually, do not fall far from the tree. There's the occaisional genetic annomoly but most kids will end up close to their parents. This is why nepetisim is so popular. If you know mom and dad are smart and hard workers, chances are their kids will be too. You increase your odds of getting a good employee if mom and dad are good employees. This is also why universities give prefferential treatment to the applications of children of alumni. Both of my dd's actually will get extra consideration for the scholarship I recieved because I recieved it and did well. People realize that acorns usually fall close to the tree. Not always but usually.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-16-2013 at 07:50 AM..
Intelligence will seek out for ways to challenge itself. If you have to push them they are not truly gifted.
I disagree with that. You should see dd#2's test scores. She is, however, missing only one trait of a gifted child and that is a passion. She has no passion for anything. So she has to be pushed. Otherwise she won't live up to her potential.
I find this really interesting. We have three gifted children in the family who do not have a passion. They have all the other traits. The other two have a passion in addition to the other traits. With them the concern is getting them to let go of the passion and do something else (I'd rather deal with one who has no motivation than one locked onto one thing.) The three in question without a passion have IQ's in the upper first percentile. And yes, the parents in question push them because they won't push themselves and it would be a waste no to push them.
Seriously, the fact I have to bribe dd#2 to practice piano does not change that she is very talented and accomplished. She's been writing music since she was 5 and performing publically since she was 6. However, she hates to practice. She loves to perform. She has to practice to perform. Hence she gets an allowance for practicing. She likes shopping. That motivates her. I would he derelict in my duties as a parent to let her talent go wasted because she's lazy (she is and she admits it). Ditto for grades in school. While I'd just as soon she learned on her own that she has to put in the effort (things are so easy for her she'd rather just skate by with lower grades) the fact remains she will be judged on her GPA. So she can't take drivers ed until her grades are up. One of my jobs as her mother is to get her to use her God given talents. They are wasted if she doesn't.
I disagree with that. You should see dd#2's test scores. She is, however, missing only one trait of a gifted child and that is a passion. She has no passion for anything. So she has to be pushed. Otherwise she won't live up to her potential.
I find this really interesting. We have three gifted children in the family who do not have a passion. They have all the other traits. The other two have a passion in addition to the other traits. With them the concern is getting them to let go of the passion and do something else (I'd rather deal with one who has no motivation than one locked onto one thing.) The three in question without a passion have IQ's in the upper first percentile. And yes, the parents in question push them because they won't push themselves and it would be a waste no to push them.
Seriously, the fact I have to bribe dd#2 to practice piano does not change that she is very talented and accomplished. She's been writing music since she was 5 and performing publically since she was 6. However, she hates to practice. She loves to perform. She has to practice to perform. Hence she gets an allowance for practicing. She likes shopping. That motivates her. I would he derelict in my duties as a parent to let her talent go wasted because she's lazy (she is and she admits it). Ditto for grades in school. While I'd just as soon she learned on her own that she has to put in the effort (things are so easy for her she'd rather just skate by with lower grades) the fact remains she will be judged on her GPA. So she can't take drivers ed until her grades are up. One of my jobs as her mother is to get her to use her God given talents. They are wasted if she doesn't.
Does anyone else see the irony in the turn this thread has taken - people talking about all their gifted children??
Does anyone else see the irony in the turn this thread has taken - people talking about all their gifted children??
That's because we can here without calling attention to them or ourselves. It's one of the few places we can. So, yeah, these threads tend to go that direction.
Here's how a lot of those "gifted" children got there.
The school has three classrooms for a grade. about 100 kids for that grade. About 10 of them are really "gifted". With high IQs, mental talents, etc. The kids are divided into three groups...with the ones with the best points on any kind of testing system on the top, as gifted, average, and below.
Now, the problem starts. We can't give a whole classroom to those 10 kids and shove the othe 90 into two rooms. . Nope, we put about 33 in each room. Therefore, the gifted room has over 20 that aren't. BUT since the kids are with those 10 gifted, in the gifted class, parents brag about their "gifted" child. They are above average, nearly average, but not gifted.
If the school has the room, they would have the top ten in a room by themselves, the lowest, by themselves and about 75-80 shoved into the whatever was left.
Some do quite well. Some don't care and won't do their best. And the worse, think they are something extra special because they were in a gifted class.
Teachers don't always understand the truly gifted either. Teachers (or anyone else, for that matter) do not understand how the gifted mind works if they, themselves, are only average.
There's no good solution except that parents understand that THE PARENTS are the ones that are really responsible for seeing that the kids have what they need to grow to their potential.
Only a very small percentage of kids are truly "gifted". Most of the time, it's just kids with parents who value education.
There are plenty of kids in G &T programs who are just average. The parents who beat their chest are just trying to conceal their own inadequecies. Just like people who claim to be so successful, with the big house and BMW, but don't have two nickels to rub together. I see it all the time.
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. I had a father threatening to stroke out at the last confernce because his daughter had a B+ in my class and that was going to RUIN her future. She wouldn't get into the right college, or have the right career. I mean this man was literally red in the face with veins popping out of his neck mad over her B+ and it was ALL MY FAULT. I was RUINING his child's life.
