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Old 02-10-2012, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,226,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
I'm not sure if I understand what you said in the first part of your statement in regards to behavioral interventions but I do generally agree with you. I think that parents are probably reaching that middle ground somewhere. As much as we debate on these boards, I would suspect that most of us agree on the big picture of parenting.
Sorry, I probably am not at my clearest communicating this morning! I meant behavioral interventions like time out or problem solving skills or contingency management (I.e.,some of the strategies that are being criticized on this thread as being too "soft" and resulting in children-gone-wild and other generalizations like "parents today are too permissive"). It seems to me that these strategies are being blamed for what people perceive as children being disrespectful and such "these days;" my stance is that I've seen a lot of parents misuse these non-corporal punishment techniques. Perhaps it is not the lack of spanking or fear-based discipline that is a problem, but that the behavioral interventions being used in their place are not being implemented properly. Did that make more sense?

I do agree that there is probably more agreement than disagreement here on the big picture of parenting and that the arguing comes from debating the details and methods.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:12 AM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,231,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
Sorry, I probably am not at my clearest communicating this morning! I meant behavioral interventions like time out or problem solving skills or contingency management (I.e.,some of the strategies that are being criticized on this thread as being too "soft" and resulting in children-gone-wild and other generalizations like "parents today are too permissive").
I don't understand contingency management. Can you explain? I am sorry if this has been covered. I either missed it or did not understand it enough to keep the info in my head.


Quote:
It seems to me that these strategies are being blamed for what people perceive as children being disrespectful and such "these days;" my stance is that I've seen a lot of parents misuse these non-corporal punishment techniques. Perhaps it is not the lack of spanking or fear-based discipline that is a problem, but that the behavioral interventions being used in their place are not being implemented properly. Did that make more sense?
I agree with this 150%
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,792,833 times
Reputation: 14677
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
Sorry, I probably am not at my clearest communicating this morning! I meant behavioral interventions like time out or problem solving skills or contingency management (I.e.,some of the strategies that are being criticized on this thread as being too "soft" and resulting in children-gone-wild and other generalizations like "parents today are too permissive"). It seems to me that these strategies are being blamed for what people perceive as children being disrespectful and such "these days;" my stance is that I've seen a lot of parents misuse these non-corporal punishment techniques. Perhaps it is not the lack of spanking or fear-based discipline that is a problem, but that the behavioral interventions being used in their place are not being implemented properly. Did that make more sense?

I do agree that there is probably more agreement than disagreement here on the big picture of parenting and that the arguing comes from debating the details and methods.
Well stated. And I'd add inconsistency and lack of communication to the misuse too.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:14 AM
 
Location: TX
6,009 posts, read 4,945,550 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
"Society" is not a homogenous group. Here in the north, you are much more likely to see permissiveness and misbehaved kids. In the bible belt, you are much more likely to see fear and shame parenting, IMO.
I can vouch for that. I acknowledge that small-town, southern parents are not representative of all parents who believe in spanking their kids. It's the only reason I don't think spanking should be illegal, because here you see parents who let their kids get away with PLENTY and then spank them purely because the misbehavior has driven them crazy. Their kids are seldom taught anything useful from their parents, until the kid's old enough to go hunting or something. If the parents have two kids, one is always walking up and hitting the other (because they see their parents do it). Spanking is more often done here by parents who couldn't care less about self-improvement, and the ones who take an active interest in educating their children tend to not believe in spanking.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:18 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,764,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
"Society" is not a homogenous group. Here in the north, you are much more likely to see permissiveness and misbehaved kids. In the bible belt, you are much more likely to see fear and shame parenting, IMO.
Interesting observation somebodynew. I would think that society is becoming more homogonized but you may be right too. For you bible belt folks, do you think this is true?

I haven't spent any time in the south as a parent. I can tell you that I'm not happy with where we live in the NE and I'm not happy with many of the kids I see here (including some behavior pattens of my own kids). This is one of many reasons why we are trying to make a move out of state. I'm not a NE gal by nature so looking some place out west or SW.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,226,786 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I don't understand contingency management. Can you explain? I am sorry if this has been covered. I either missed it or did not understand it enough to keep the info in my head.



I agree with this 150%
Sure. Contingency management is based on the idea that humans are more likely to engage in a behavior that we WANT to do than we are to engage in a behavior we don't want to do. Setting up or even just illustrating natural contingencies (if-then relationships) that occur in life can help us motivate ourselves to do what needs to be done by requiring ourselves to do what we HAVE to do before we can do what we WANT to do.

For example, homework (that has to be done) is agreed upon to be completed before watching TV or doing recreational reading (things that are wants, not needs). Adults do this all the time without realizing it- we get our work done before having leisure time, for example. One thing I like about contingency management is that it encourages self-discipline. When used in parenting, it opens up conversations before conflicts can arise about what the child's responsibilities are and also takes into account what the child values or finds reinforcing (i.e, it is a personalized way to motivate rather than a one-size-fits-all). Over time, the child learns to become responsible for his/her own behavior choices. A nice side effect is that we may sometimes find we have derived satisfaction from doing what we must (e.g., pride in a job well-done or a large amount of effort applied, which highlights an intrinsic motivator), not just what we want. I find these skills valuable to carry into adulthood.

There are other applications as well, but I fear I am being really long-winded!

I did a quick search - this is a nice description of some contingency management strategies with kids:
http://cecp.air.org/familybriefs/docs/CONTINGENCY.pdf

Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 02-10-2012 at 07:41 AM..
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:29 AM
 
11,614 posts, read 19,716,271 times
Reputation: 12046
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Interesting observation somebodynew. I would think that society is becoming more homogonized but you may be right too. For you bible belt folks, do you think this is true?

I haven't spent any time in the south as a parent. I can tell you that I'm not happy with where we live in the NE and I'm not happy with many of the kids I see here (including some behavior pattens of my own kids). This is one of many reasons why we are trying to make a move out of state. I'm not a NE gal by nature so looking some place out west or SW.
I live in the south, but not the bible belt. I see many different kinds of parents around here. Some who let their kids walk all over them and others that are very tuned in to their kids. I am sure there are some regional trends to parenting but I think that there is really just variation in people.

Different people fight different battles. For instance, I really don't care if my kids make their beds or not. I have more important things to worry about. If I need them made because I am having company I do it myself. Some people will see this as a total lack of discipline in my kids. I just see it as something I don't care about and they really don't care about it either.

However, my same kids clean the kitchen after dinner every night (and have for years). They don't have to be asked, begged, or even talked to. We eat as a family, dh and I sit in the family room and the kids clean the kitchen. They don't fight about it or even comment on it. They just do it. Others have commented to me that my kids are very disciplined because they do this on their own every night.

So depending on who is viewing the family we can come accross as extremely permissive parents with kids that don't even bother to make their beds, or extremely pro active parents who have taught the kids enough discipline to clean up after themselves. In reality, we are just regular parents trying to teach our kids what is important to us.

I think you will see variation across families.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:37 AM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,231,004 times
Reputation: 14654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linmora View Post
Interesting observation somebodynew. I would think that society is becoming more homogonized but you may be right too. For you bible belt folks, do you think this is true?

I haven't spent any time in the south as a parent. I can tell you that I'm not happy with where we live in the NE and I'm not happy with many of the kids I see here (including some behavior pattens of my own kids). This is one of many reasons why we are trying to make a move out of state. I'm not a NE gal by nature so looking some place out west or SW.
What behavior patterns are you seeing? I am in New England. I wonder if you and I see the same thing. It seems to me that I see a lot of kind of disengaged parents, parents who don't really expect that it is possible or desirable for their kids to behave. The soothe, cajole, plead. In the final analysis if they "can't get" their kid to do something, it doesn't get done.

I am told all the time how well behaved my kids are with wonder on faces and voices as if my kids are magical. One colleague of mine goes on and on about how he can't get his girls to do this or that, or that they are always fighting. We are reasonable close. So I said you know it does not have to be like that. You can discipline them. He replies oh no my wife won't let me spank them. So I loan him my three books. I said I have don't raise my voice to my kids, let alone my hand. And I have almost zero behavior problems. And it is EASY once you put a couple of new skills in the toolbox. The books are still there, unread, on his shelf. He does not want to learn new skills. He wants to wring his hands about the fact that his kids are miserable beasts.

I truly don't get it.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:38 AM
 
1,516 posts, read 1,764,767 times
Reputation: 3110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic 2.0 View Post
I can vouch for that. I acknowledge that small-town, southern parents are not representative of all parents who believe in spanking their kids. It's the only reason I don't think spanking should be illegal, because here you see parents who let their kids get away with PLENTY and then spank them purely because the misbehavior has driven them crazy. Their kids are seldom taught anything useful from their parents, until the kid's old enough to go hunting or something. If the parents have two kids, one is always walking up and hitting the other (because they see their parents do it). Spanking is more often done here by parents who couldn't care less about self-improvement, and the ones who take an active interest in educating their children tend to not believe in spanking.
Yikes, you paint a really bad picture of the south. Glad that I don't live there with all the beer swilling, deer hunting southern rednecks that smack their kids around with the least provocation. Good forbid that they have more than one kid because those kids must be smacking up one another pretty good.....

Your last statement is a pretty broad brush of parents that may use corporal punishment in any form. This is why these discussions never end up on a positive note since we can't reach that middle ground.
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Old 02-10-2012, 07:43 AM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,231,004 times
Reputation: 14654
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
Sure. Contingency management is based on the idea that humans are more likely to engage in a behavior that we WANT to do than we are to engage in a behavior we don't want to do. Setting up or even just illustrating natural contingencies (if-then relationships) that occur in life can help us motivate ourselves to do what needs to be done by requiring ourselves to do what we HAVE to do before we can do what we WANT to do.

For example, homework (that has to be done) is agreed upon to be completed before watching TV or doing recreational reading (things that are wants, not needs). Adults do this all the time without realizing it- we get our work done before having leisure time, for example. One thing I like about contingency management is that it encourages self-discipline. When used in parenting, it opens up conversations before conflicts can arise about what the child's responsibilities are and also takes into account what the child values or finds reinforcing (i.e, it is a personalized way to motivate rather than a one-size-fits-all). Over time, the child learns to become responsible for his/her own behavior choices. A nice side effect is that we may sometimes find we have derived satisfaction from doing what we must (e.g., pride in a job well-done or a large amount of effort applied, which highlights an intrinsic motivator), not just what we want. I find these skills valuable to carry into adulthood.

There are other applications as well, but I fear I am being really long-winded!

I did a quick search - this is a nice description of some contingency management strategies with kids:
http://cecp.air.org/familybriefs/docs/CONTINGENCY.pdf

Ah ah yes. Very powerful and important. I just did not know it was called contingency management. Thanks.
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