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Old 02-16-2012, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,976 posts, read 11,844,159 times
Reputation: 14681

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I could go on and on but you get my point. Heard immunity is far from perfect. Vaccines aren't fool proof, they don't always work, they wear off, people don't get boosters in time, live vaccines spread disease to suppressed individuals, the vaccinated spread illness. There is plenty of proof that the vaccinated get these diseases and spread them.
So, I would think all of you would understand how idiot it seems as an excuse to me. I'm not an anti vaccine mom but I can clearly see their point.
Sorry PoppySead, but you don't understand how vaccines work at all.

Here is a really good explanation:

Discovery Health "How Vaccines Work"

 
Old 02-16-2012, 09:32 PM
 
8,487 posts, read 5,709,644 times
Reputation: 1113
I would say the doctor has a right. Personally I most likely wouldn't get a vaccination, but I would just get another doctor.
 
Old 02-16-2012, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,619 posts, read 26,315,697 times
Reputation: 26715
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I don't see the risks of exposure to newborns in a family practice by someone unvaccinated as a great risk,not enough risk to fire the patients. Seems extreme to me, not enough risk associated with it. It would be a rare event and how would you prove the baby even got it from a patient? They could have caught it at the store on the way home from the doctor, how would you even know? Of course the parents would try and put 2 and 2 together but that isn't proof, and of course they'd be upset but that doesn't mean they can blame it on the unvaccinated patient. They have no way of proving that. The stats are so low, even for cases of these diseases that I wouldn't worry about it myself, and don't.
Actually, with measles it is pretty easy to trace it because it is so infectious. A high percentage of susceptible people, either unvaccinated or undervaccinated or pure vaccine failures will catch it if they are exposed. Knowing when people get sick, how long it takes to get sick after exposure, and where people were at the appropriate time for exposure allows you to pinpoint who the first person to get measles was.

Hospital-Associated Measles Outbreak — Pennsylvania, March–April 2009

"On March 28, 2009, a physician notified the Pennsylvania Department of Health (PADOH) of a measles case involving an unvaccinated child. Within 5 days, four additional cases were reported to PADOH and the Allegheny County Health Department. All five infected persons had been in the same hospital emergency department (ED) on March 10; one of them was a physician who worked in the ED." An additional case occurred in an 11 month old infant who was in the ER at the same time as the index patient.

Since sick children get taken to doctors' offices and ER's, the risk of transmitting measles in those settings is high.

The full article tells exactly how cases were located. This outbreak was small, largely because the diagnosis was suspected early in the time line.

It is even possible to type the virus and trace its spread over entire countries.

Quote:
I never worried about my newborn getting those illnesses from unvaccinated kids. I worried more about RSV or the flu.
You never worry about measles, mumps and rubella because vaccination keeps them under control.

Thanks to Andrew Wakefield's bogus theory that measles vaccine causes autism, Europe has a real measles problem:

Measles Outbreak In Europe, Especially France

Quote:
It seems the doctor is being a little illogical about the whole thing. I mean a patient would be more likely to kill a person on the way to the doctor in their car then give a newborn measles or mumps. Maybe he should just stick with the facts and the real risks of that ever happening. Many more non vaccinated kids go to the doctor every year and never give other patients any of these diseases and dying from it if it did happen would be extremely rare. I don't think relying on "what if's" or "maybes" justifies firing patients. The risk is minimal to say the least. I think it's overkill myself.
If vaccination rates for these illnesses drop, they come back. They are not trivial. With measles, it takes a 90% vaccination rate to keep it under control.
 
Old 02-16-2012, 10:13 PM
 
Location: here
24,484 posts, read 28,868,597 times
Reputation: 31077
I just spoke to a relative who works in the medical field (not a doctor, but works with them). Apparently doctors fire (that is the term he used) patients all the time for all kinds of reasons. It is quite common. It might happen because the patient will not follow the doctor's instructions, or the patient is "crazy", or the family member with power of attorney is crazy or non-compliant. In his words, there is no slippery slope because it already happens for a variety of reasons. Just thought I'd put that info out there.
 
Old 02-16-2012, 10:17 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,094 posts, read 99,210,314 times
Reputation: 31569
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I think some people are waiting a bit to see long term effects. New issues appear to be being addressed on this vaccine. I am assuming that you won't agree with this but I will clearly state, I am only assuming.
Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic
I've had several relatives get the chicken pox vaccine including one of my own children. They have all had shingles since. These are kids, with shingles, very painful and they reoccur. This seems odd, and makes me wonder if the vaccine was the right choice. But, I am the one responsible because I made that choice. I can see where this information could cause a parent to wait on this vaccine though.
Not to mention it is a live virus when given, I'm not sure if giving school age children a live vaccine and sending them to school would make a difference in chicken pox cases or spread of the chicken pox to kids not yet vaccinated or who have not yet had chicken pox. That might be of concern as well to me, as a parent. One of my friends had 2 children, one 4 and one infant. She got the 4 yr old the shot and her baby got a mild form of chicken pox, and now as a 6 yr old has shingles as well.
There are usually reasons for these decisions parents make, I don't think they are neglecting their children in any fashion. I don't think they are being extreme either. Just concerned. But you are allowed to your view, just as they are allowed to have their own concerns.
Your link is a crock. Gary S. Goldman's PhD is in computer science, not biology, epidemiology or any health science related discipline. He is an anti-immunization advocate. You get shingles from having the chickenpox virus in your body, by natural disease or by immunization.

Chickenpox is not spread by vaccinees, unless they get a pustular rash from the immunization AND someone has contact with the pustules. In other words, pretty hard to pass on that way.

Your friend's six year old with shingles had the chickenpox virus in his/her body, e.g. from the shot or from natural disease. The disease one would catch from chickenpox vaccine, which I've already discussed is if one had never had the disease or the shot is chickenpox, not shingles. As explained above, this is unlikely.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 02-16-2012 at 10:34 PM..
 
Old 02-16-2012, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,094 posts, read 99,210,314 times
Reputation: 31569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave5150 View Post
I have a chicken pox scar from when I was vaccinated! Its on my leg and is a perfect circle from one pock i got.
I think you are thinking about smallpox vaccination, not chickenpox. It was not licensed for use in the US until 1995.
 
Old 02-16-2012, 10:35 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,584,126 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I'm sorry, but that's a crock. Google how you get shingles. You'll be surprised.
Moderator cut: snip

Webmd: The Link Between Chickenpox and Shingles
A study by the CDC and other scientists confirmed that since 1993, the incidence of shingles has nearly doubled in the adult U.S. population. One explanation for the increase has to do with the universal vaccination of children against chickenpox. According to this theory, because most children no longer get chickenpox disease (which used to be a ritual of childhood), their parents no longer get the immunological “boost” that comes from being exposed to the virus while caring for sick children.

No actually, I'm not that surprised.
Kids getting the chicken pox actually helped parents and Grandparents get a booster to avoid shingles which seems to have more ill effects than Chicken Pox. Better get your shingles vaccine that they have made to combat the side effect of riding the world of Chicken Pox.

Last edited by JustJulia; 02-17-2012 at 06:59 AM.. Reason: You cannot quote lengthy paragraphs with no citation.
 
Old 02-16-2012, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,584,126 times
Reputation: 7421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Your link is a crock. Gary S. Goldman's PhD is in computer science, not biology, epidemiology or any health science related discipline. He is an anti-immunization advocate. You get shingles from having the chickenpox virus in your body, by natural disease or by immunization.

Chickenpox is not spread by vaccinees, unless they get a pustular rash from the immunization AND someone has contact with the pustules. In other words, pretty hard to pass on that way.

Your friend's six year old with shingles had the chickenpox virus in his/her body, e.g. from the shot or from natural disease. The disease one would catch from chickenpox vaccine, which I've already discussed is if one had never had the disease or the shot is chickenpox, not shingles. As explained above, this is unlikely.
Shingles cases are doubling because of the Chicken Pox vaccine. Read carefully. Chicken pox is also a live virus and can give you shingles as a side effect just like the chicken pox can.
Although rare, just like unvaccinated children in waiting rooms, the chicken pox vaccine can make you contagious. So giving vaccines also has a rare chance of spreading the virus to a newborn up to a month later. What if that said child comes back to the vaccine only doctors office and gives a newborn chicken pox? Read the CDC pamphlet.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis...-varicella.pdf

Last edited by PoppySead; 02-16-2012 at 10:54 PM..
 
Old 02-16-2012, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,094 posts, read 99,210,314 times
Reputation: 31569
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
'Every time adults come into contact with children who've just caught chicken pox, they get the natural equivalent of a booster shot of the virus which strengthens their resistance,' explains Dr Phillip Welsby, an infectious diseases expert who has just retired from Western General Hospital, Edinburgh.


What the parents usually didn't realise was they were benefiting as well,' says Welsby. 'GPs, for instance, are less likely to develop shingles, because they are regularly exposed to children with chicken pox.'
However, a nationwide campaign to vaccinate children against the disease would mean adults would be exposed to fewer children with chicken pox, so they miss out on this natural booster 'jab'.
While nearly all cases of chicken pox are pretty mild - a slight fever for a few days and small itchy blisters - shingles is often a nasty condition in the elderly. By the age of 85, 65 per cent of us will have suffered this often extremely painful disease.
It begins as a burning sensation along the nerves down which the virus is moving, followed by the rash and fever, usually lasting three to five days. But in some cases - as many as 20 per cent of those over 50 - severe pain will be there six months later.
40 per cent of sufferers will have long-lasting pain due to permanent nerve damage, according to the Shingles Support Society.
If the virus reaches your eyes, it can cause blindness. If you have to go to hospital for chicken pox, your average stay will be three days, but for shingles it is 11 days and you are six times more likely to die.
Although the inflammation doesn't kill you, it can lead to fatal conditions such as pneumonia, inflammation of the brain or severe bacterial infections in the eruptions in the skin leading to toxic shock. Some experts put the death rate from shingles at five times that from chicken pox.

Webmd: The Link Between Chickenpox and Shingles
A study by the CDC and other scientists confirmed that since 1993, the incidence of shingles has nearly doubled in the adult U.S. population. One explanation for the increase has to do with the universal vaccination of children against chickenpox. According to this theory, because most children no longer get chickenpox disease (which used to be a ritual of childhood), their parents no longer get the immunological “boost” that comes from being exposed to the virus while caring for sick children.

No actually, I'm not that surprised.
Kids getting the chicken pox actually helped parents and Grandparents get a booster to avoid shingles which seems to have more ill effects than Chicken Pox. Better get your shingles vaccine that they have made to combat the side effect of riding the world of Chicken Pox.
There is no support for the theory put forth by webmd. It's unproven. Also, there is no evidence in the form of numbers that GPs actually get less shingles than other people. It is true that being exposed to chickenpox boosts the immunity of people who have had chickenpox, but that has NOTHING to do with getting shingles. Something else from webmd:

Shingles (Herpes Zoster) Treatment, Causes, Symptoms, Vaccine

Shingles occurs when the virus that causes chickenpox starts up again in your body. After you get better from chickenpox, the virus "sleeps" (is dormant) in your nerve roots. In some people, it stays dormant forever. In others, the virus "wakes up" when disease, stress, or aging weakens the immune system.

Funny that the incidence of shingles has doubled since 1993, when chickenpox vaccine wasn't even licensed until 1995, and uptake was slow until it was made mandatory, which was much later in most states:

State Mandates on Immunization and Vaccine-Preventable Diseases: Varicella
 
Old 02-16-2012, 10:51 PM
 
Location: BK All Day
4,480 posts, read 8,353,324 times
Reputation: 4288
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
There is no support for the theory put forth by webmd. It's unproven. Also, there is no evidence in the form of numbers that GPs actually get less shingles than other people. It is true that being exposed to chickenpox boosts the immunity of people who have had chickenpox, but that has NOTHING to do with getting shingles. Something else from webmd:

Shingles (Herpes Zoster) Treatment, Causes, Symptoms, Vaccine

Shingles occurs when the virus that causes chickenpox starts up again in your body. After you get better from chickenpox, the virus "sleeps" (is dormant) in your nerve roots. In some people, it stays dormant forever. In others, the virus "wakes up" when disease, stress, or aging weakens the immune system.

Funny that the incidence of shingles has doubled since 1993, when chickenpox vaccine wasn't even licensed until 1995, and uptake was slow until it was made mandatory, which was much later in most states:

State Mandates on Immunization and Vaccine-Preventable Diseases: Varicella
And from that same article poppy poster there is this:
Quote:
But there are some reasons to doubt that childhood chickenpox shots are responsible for the uptick in shingles. In their study, Bialek and colleagues found that shingles was on the rise even before the chickenpox vaccine was licensed for children in 1995. Also, adults in states with mandatory chickenpox immunization didn’t have higher rates of shingles than those in states where children weren’t as well-vaccinated, and therefore more likely to get sick and provide immune boosters to parents and grandparents.
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