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Old 02-20-2012, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,522 posts, read 26,139,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
It frequently contains, ammonium, iodine, hexachlorines and a variety of other chemicals that can potentially interact with other chemicals in my lab in addition to being flammable. These chemicals are not likely in the hands of untrained children in a hospital.

And yes, I would not allow my students to rub an ounce of perfume or cologne on their hands before they light a bunsen burner.
Then not using them in the lab seems reasonable. Do you think they should not be used in schools at all?
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,522 posts, read 26,139,087 times
Reputation: 26514
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Fine but do not OVERSTATE the case that sanitiziers eliminate all germs (viral and bacterial), that it is impossible for them to convey resistance, etc as the first link stated.

There are serious drawback to the use of sanitizers INSTEAD of hand washing, as many, many parents and children do.
I never said they eliminate all organisms. If I did, please link to the post that gave you that impression.

I have repeatedly said that hand washing and sanitizers are complementary. Can you link to a post where I say only use sanitizers, do not wash your hands?

It does happen to be true that organisms do not become resistant to alcohol based hand rubs. All the biologist wants to know about hand hygiene:

Epidemiologic Background of Hand Hygiene and Evaluation of the Most Important Agents for Scrubs and Rubs

"(iv) Resistance.
No acquired resistance to ethanol, isopropanol, or n-propanol has been reported to date."

Bacteria become resistant to antibiotics, not to hand sanitizers.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,554,762 times
Reputation: 7421
I would wonder the effectiveness in school with small kids who surely have dirt, snot, stool and or blood on their hands as well as bacteria and virus. I'm not sure if sanitizer will deal with all that, I'd trust hand washing more, sometimes you have to help the little ones learn appropriate hand washing.

But, like I said before, better than nothing as long as those chemicals used 6 or 7 times a day don't pose a health hazard in it's self. I haven't heard anything about it but I'm gathering they are safe for use constantly. Adults and children use tons of hand gel a day as far as I can see, it's becoming second nature. Hand washing is not nearly as frequent anymore.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,522 posts, read 26,139,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I would wonder the effectiveness in school with small kids who surely have dirt, snot, stool and or blood on their hands as well as bacteria and virus. I'm not sure if sanitizer will deal with all that, I'd trust hand washing more, sometimes you have to help the little ones learn appropriate hand washing.

But, like I said before, better than nothing as long as those chemicals used 6 or 7 times a day don't pose a health hazard in it's self. I haven't heard anything about it but I'm gathering they are safe for use constantly. Adults and children use tons of hand gel a day as far as I can see, it's becoming second nature. Hand washing is not nearly as frequent anymore.
The obvious dirt and bodily substances need to be washed off.

Using the sanitizer in between washing is fine, even multiple times a day.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,554,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I did not intend to minimize the importance of hand washing. I've done it a lot the last few days! The problem is that most of the time we do not do it long enough.

Thirty seconds worth of a hand sanitizer works better than thirty seconds of hand washing. This study did actual bacterial counts before and after washing or using sanitizer.

Efficacy of handrubbing with alcohol based solution versus standard handwashing with antiseptic soap: randomised clinical trial

If I were in a hospital, I would rather watch someone use the foam sanitizer next to the door than trust them to wash their hands long enough to do some good.
I agree, we need to learn to wash our hands properly. I don't even see people bothering with this at school. They just have a big jug of hand gel now. If I have to take my child to school where kids are being brought ill or with staph infections then I'd love for them to at least make sure they teach them proper hand washing as well as using all that gel. They use to teach us about the importance of a good washing of the hands, they seem to think a squirt of gel is easier now. They shouldn't forgo the soap and water though.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,008 posts, read 98,863,560 times
Reputation: 31451
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I am also a scientist, with a graduate biology degree.
Yes, we know. You tell us often enough. I thought suzy_q's response about it not mattering for the purpose of this discussion was a good one. We don't need to know the intricacies of the biology of viruses to discuss hand sanitizer.
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Hyrule
8,401 posts, read 9,554,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The obvious dirt and bodily substances need to be washed off.

Using the sanitizer in between washing is fine, even multiple times a day.
Good to know because you know what they say, don't rub anything on your skin you wouldn't feel comfortable drinking. Your skin isn't a shield, it's absorbent.

Taking sick kids to school can't be helped sometimes but ignoring proper hygiene can be helped most of the time. Most teachers have sinks in their classrooms now.
I wonder if those masks they wear in Asia during flu season would help?

Last edited by PoppySead; 02-20-2012 at 01:05 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
85,008 posts, read 98,863,560 times
Reputation: 31451
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead View Post
I would wonder the effectiveness in school with small kids who surely have dirt, snot, stool and or blood on their hands as well as bacteria and virus. I'm not sure if sanitizer will deal with all that, I'd trust hand washing more, sometimes you have to help the little ones learn appropriate hand washing.

But, like I said before, better than nothing as long as those chemicals used 6 or 7 times a day don't pose a health hazard in it's self. I haven't heard anything about it but I'm gathering they are safe for use constantly. Adults and children use tons of hand gel a day as far as I can see, it's becoming second nature. Hand washing is not nearly as frequent anymore.
The effectiveness of handwashing for the bold depends a lot on how much friction is applied and for how long. This is somewhat true of hand sanitizer as well, of course. Little kids tend not to be the best at general hygiene. I actually think people "wash" their hands more now that sanitizer has become so common. It's easy to keep a little container in your purse and wash your hands at a restaurant, for example.
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:07 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 35,002,181 times
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Hand sanitizer will not wash poop, snot, dirt, etc. off your hands. Soap is a surfactant, which binds to the funk and allows it to wash off a surface. Even if you rub your hands in a washing motion, hand sanitizer does not work the same way.
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Old 02-20-2012, 01:11 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 35,002,181 times
Reputation: 42372
I do think it's good for schools to have sanitizer readily available because, as people have pointed out, kids tend to skip handwashing or do a poor job, and sanitizer is better than nothing. If I were a teacher, I would want to Lysol the bejeebies out of everything every day after school.
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