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I actually know someone who has exactly DD1's personality. I knew her since she was little-- and even then, you could see little traces of what she would become. Her mother did everything possible to help her... She was diagnosed being ADHD (among other mental issues). She was always extremely jealous of her elder sister (my friend)... and would whine incessantly about how her sister had the "easy life". Even though, reality doesn't bear that... and my friend is and was always the one who had it harder due to her disabilities (Deaf and partially blind), facial deformities (OMG, people have treated her rotten. Even now) and circumstances (that the girl never experienced herself). But my friend has a very patient, loving and understanding personality which endears her to a lot of people-- and this infuriates my friend's sister.
I do think/believe that there are some children that are just born insecured. That's something my friend's sister, DD1 (and several others I know) will have to learn and fix on their own. Walking on eggshells and indulging their melodramatics never works. With my friend's sister, my friend and a lot of her family members started taking a firm (but fair) stance with her, and not falling into traps. She has improved a little... with them. The only family member who hasn't taken the firm stance is the mother-- and oh boy, the woman is going to work herself to death "helping" the girl.
Ivory, I do feel for you in your quest for figuring out how to navigate the relationship between your daughters and the family. Is there any chance that DD is very emotionally vulnerable? By that, I mean hypersensitive to emotion/stimuli and may interpret things a lot differently than they are intended by the speaker? I ask because some of my more emotionally vulnerable clients had a very difficult time feeling invalidated (like no one understands what they are experiencing) even if there is validation (not agreeing with, just acknowledging what the person is experiencing without judgment in order to get to a point where they can stop trying to explain their internal state and just solve the problem) from loved ones. It can be exhausting for both the family who can feel that they are walking on eggshells and for the emotionally vulnerable person who honestly feels things more intensely than your average bear. ETA: There is nothing "wrong" with the emotionally vulnerable, their brains are just wired a little differently than less emotionally vulnerable people.
If DD is truly not trying due to fear of failing, have you tried talking to her about whether she is afraid and what of? It need not make rational sense if she is experiencing fear, but if she is and you talk about it, she may be able to be gently coaxed into figuring out how to make a plan to cope with the fear (this is different from coddling or protecting her from hearing about other DD's accomplishments). I guess I'm wondering about the primary problem emotion (we all tend to have one) that may be getting in her way. Jealousy tends to be a secondary problem emotion, with some other strong emotion going on underneath it. Feel free not to answer this, as I know I am asking personal things - just something to think on or to speak with her therapist about, not that I need an answer to. Good luck.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 06-09-2012 at 09:45 AM..
I feel like this problem has deep roots and may be too complex for quick fixes. I know that there are lots of different parenting workshops offered in my city from babies to teens. Is there anything like this in your area? It could be very helpful. Maybe your dd's counselor could recommend a good book or maybe someone here can. Maybe counseling would be helpful for you just so that you can get some fresh ideas and support in addressing this issue. I wish you luck in this. I hope things improve soon.
Ivory, what do you LIKE about DD? You've been asked time and time again, and never answer. Maybe it would help if you sat her down, took her out to dinner, etc. and told her why you think she's a great kid and how much you love her.
Ivory, what do you LIKE about DD? You've been asked time and time again, and never answer. Maybe it would help if you sat her down, took her out to dinner, etc. and told her why you think she's a great kid and how much you love her.
Why on earth are you asking this ignorant question? Did you not read any of her posts? She thinks she's good at a lot of things, but the child doesn't put effort into the likable traits she has. She spends overtime on this daughter, the other one doesn't need or want all her time. She is on here begging for suggestions to help her older daughter, despite getting insults, because she LOVES her daughter!!!
I imagine she'd love to LIKE her daughter, and can see possible reasons if her daughter would emphasize those traits but right now the daughter doesn't feel like it, she feels like emphasizing her bad traits. Doesn't sound like she's wanting to be very likable right now.
I think this is the point when Ivory asks, how can I help my daughter show her GOOD side to others, how can I get my daughter to stop destroying herself and get her to show her likable side. I don't want others to dislike my daughter, I don't want to dislike my daughter. Why would you ask such a question after all her posts on this very subject. Her daughter can't even hold friendships right now because she is clearly NOT LIKABLE at the moment. by anyone.
Sometimes, you need a professional for this so thank goodness the daughter is seeing one. If it doesn't help soon enough I might switch her to another one. Her daughters case isn't that unusual for a teen or adult. Some find their own by hating everyone, and sometimes they always have a little hate on through adulthood. It's just a personality disorder. It has nothing to do with building her up less than her sister, it has to do with the daughter not accepting her help like the other one does. That's all. She obviously wants control of this situation but she just may not be able to get it. Parents can't solve every single thing with love or like.
Why on earth are you asking this ignorant question? Did you not read any of her posts? She thinks she's good at a lot of things, but the child doesn't put effort into the likable traits she has. She spends overtime on this daughter, the other one doesn't need or want all her time. She is on here begging for suggestions to help her older daughter, despite getting insults, because she LOVES her daughter!!!
I imagine she'd love to LIKE her daughter, and can see possible reasons if her daughter would emphasize those traits but right now the daughter doesn't feel like it, she feels like emphasizing her bad traits. Doesn't sound like she's wanting to be very likable right now.
I think this is the point when Ivory asks, how can I help my daughter show her GOOD side to others, how can I get my daughter to stop destroying herself and get her to show her likable side. I don't want others to dislike my daughter, I don't want to dislike my daughter. Why would you ask such a question after all her posts on this very subject. Her daughter can't even hold friendships right now because she is clearly NOT LIKABLE at the moment. by anyone.
IME, there is no such thing as a totally unlikeable person, unless one is engaging in a lot of all or none thinking. There is a difference between someone struggling with a lot of ineffective behaviors (that can be worked with) and someone who is unlikeable (not a useful stance for problem solving). I think what posters are trying to get Ivory to do is to articulate strengths her daughter has currently as-is, even as she is also struggling with a number of other problem behaviors. Sometimes in life it is easy to overlook the positives when we are so focused on trying to fix the other problems, y'know?
IME, there is no such thing as a totally unlikeable person, unless one is engaging in a lot of all or none thinking. There is a difference between someone struggling with a lot of ineffective behaviors (that can be worked with) and someone who is unlikeable (not a useful stance for problem solving). I think what posters are trying to get Ivory to do is to articulate strengths her daughter has currently as-is, even as she is also struggling with a number of other problem behaviors. Sometimes in life it is easy to overlook the positives when we are so focused on trying to fix the other problems, y'know?
This is not about what I like about dd or dislike about dd. Picking traits and saying "I like that you have blond hair" or "I like that you're skinny" or "I like the color you painted your toenails today" isn't going to help here. I WISH it were that simple. You and others are trying to make this too simple. Just PRAISE the child and all will be well....That type of parenting has bread a very fragile generation of kids who fall apart when the praise stops. ...and besides, dd is smart enough to see through that. She's bright in her own right. We just can't seem to get her to apply herself. In her mind, smart means you don't have to work at anything. She's the type of student who can get A's and B's if she tries but she doesn't try.
BTW, I love my kids because they are my kids. Period. And they know it. I refuse to say I love you because ___________. What if something happens and they are no longer ______________? And I don't love them because they are __________________ anyway. I just love them because they are who they are. Period. God forbid they got hit by a truck tomorrow and everything they are were destroyed, I'd still love them because they are my kids. Love is not conditional.
I think the issue is multifaceted. I see a lot of your dd#1 in myself, some of dd#2 in my sister, and some of my mom in you. I am very glad that your daughter is in therapy. I think that is a good step in the right direction. However it will not be enough by itself.
I have always felt a lot of anxiety about things. I have been afraid to try new things for fear of failing. The few times I did try new things, I failed, which just reinforced this feeling. It may not seem like a valid way to feel to you, but her feelings are probably very real to her. My mom often did, and still does, brush my feelings aside, and it is very hurtful.
I have a mother who is very particular, and thinks there is a right way and a wrong way. She sees thing in black and white, and if you don't see things her way or do things her way, you are wrong. That is what I fear is going on between you and your daughter. I can remember feeling like my mom loved me, but didn't like me, and that is not a good way to feel. And I think she didn't like me because I didn't fall into her definition of "right."
It has taken therapy, and a lot of soul searching to figure some of this stuff out. What I see now is that I have some mental health issues, as does my mother. I have addressed mine, and I can see them for what they are. My mother has not. She thinks I'm broken, and she is fine. What I fear in your situation, is that you don't see dd#1's issues as an illness, but instead blame her for simply being who she is. I also fear that you put this whole thing on her shoulders without looking at yourself and what you could be doing to contribute to the problem.
I am very proud of the fact that I sought help from a therapist when I could see things going downhill between my older son and I. He was only 6 at the time, and I was determined to nip it in the bud before it was too late. the difference between that and what you are doing is that we BOTH go to therapy. I am the parent and it is up to me to lead him in the right direction. When we get in a downward spiral, I am the one who works to pull us out of it. I change my own behavior because I am the parent, and that is my job.
I wish that my parents had been proactive back when I was younger, instead of just throwing up their hands and blaming it all on me, without looking at themselves as contributing factors. I saw it as a teen, and I see it now looking back as an adult. They are not without fault, but to this day would never admit it. I hope that you can turn this around before it is too late for you and your daughter. That would require you to take a look in the mirror and admit that you could do things better. I don't think you are to blame for the situation, but I think you contribute to it. You have the chance to make it better instead of worse. I hope you will.
IME, there is no such thing as a totally unlikeable person, unless one is engaging in a lot of all or none thinking. There is a difference between someone struggling with a lot of ineffective behaviors (that can be worked with) and someone who is unlikeable (not a useful stance for problem solving). I think what posters are trying to get Ivory to do is to articulate strengths her daughter has currently as-is, even as she is also struggling with a number of other problem behaviors. Sometimes in life it is easy to overlook the positives when we are so focused on trying to fix the other problems, y'know?
Exactly, Ewag. I think it would really help for Ivory to look at what DD is GOOD at, what makes DD a great person, etc. and recognize and celebrate those strengths, while continuing to work with her on the weaknesses.
I have a child who occasionally engages in the same things Ivory's child does. She wants everything to be a success and if there's question in her mind that it WON'T be a success, she sometimes won't try, and will compare herself to others. I have found that when she gets in her little moods where "she sucks compared to everyone else", it's very effective to say "no, you did not do as well as your sister on that test (or whatever it may be) but you do well with so many other things and you shouldn't let one test ruin your mood. You're great at [...] and that's what makes YOU great." or something along those lines.
I don't think you're completely to blame for DD's issues, but I do believe it would be effective to think long and hard about doing something differently to fix the problem.
This is not about what I like about dd or dislike about dd. Picking traits and saying "I like that you have blond hair" or "I like that you're skinny" or "I like the color you painted your toenails today" isn't going to help here. I WISH it were that simple. You and others are trying to make this too simple. Just PRAISE the child and all will be well....That type of parenting has bread a very fragile generation of kids who fall apart when the praise stops. ...and besides, dd is smart enough to see through that. She's bright in her own right. We just can't seem to get her to apply herself. In her mind, smart means you don't have to work at anything. She's the type of student who can get A's and B's if she tries but she doesn't try.
BTW, I love my kids because they are my kids. Period. And they know it. I refuse to say I love you because ___________. What if something happens and they are no longer ______________? And I don't love them because they are __________________ anyway. I just love them because they are who they are. Period. God forbid they got hit by a truck tomorrow and everything they are were destroyed, I'd still love them because they are my kids. Love is not conditional.
I'm sorry you misunderstood what I said. I don't believe that empty praise is useful. Nor do I believe that love is conditional. The post you quoted I was responding to poppy, trying to explain what I think other posters were asking of you. I don't believe the posts are trying to judge you, or say you don't like or love your child. My first post on this thread was more directed to your OP situation. I completely agree with your last paragraph.
ETA: it must be very hard that you keep trying to get her to apply herself and it isn't working yet. I don't know the details (nor am I asking) but when things aren't working, sometimes we need to try "different," to get to where she is currently, even if it doesn't make any sense to you, to help guide her to where she needs to be. Also, validation is not praise. Two different constructs.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 06-09-2012 at 12:25 PM..
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by anyone.
Exactly, Ewag. I think it would really help for Ivory to look at what DD is GOOD at, what makes DD a great person, etc. and recognize and celebrate those strengths, while continuing to work with her on the weaknesses. 