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Old 07-31-2012, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
There are entire societies that don't "fight" that, in fact some of them practice it. Their societal norms are firmly in place; do they "work"? And if they work, whatever you may mean by working, are they justified?
And thankfully civilized societies in 2012 find it abhorrent.
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Old 07-31-2012, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
"On the norm" he would have adequate supervision to prevent it.

An interesting old page: Wisconsin's War on Kids

And an excellent article by clinical therapists:

Antisexuality and Child Sexual Abuse
You left out that part that Underwager and his wife were considered somewhat controversial. There are plenty of researchers and clinicians who support the idea that false memories exist and that sometimes the system goes too far in pathologizing sexual behavior (E.g., a teen as a registered sex offender for consensual sex with his teen partner) without going so far as to make statements that can be construed as supporting pedophilia (both authors were asked to leave their foundation after Underwager gave a controversial interview with a pro-pedophilia journal). Just because someone is a clinician doesn't make them reputable or speaking to the recognized norms of psychology. I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that these two speak for the mainstream.

Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 07-31-2012 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,711 posts, read 13,446,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimbochick View Post
And thankfully civilized societies in 2012 find it abhorrent.
Question-begging. I wouldn't call a society that treats children the way OP's nephew is likely to be treated "civilized", yet here we are.
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Michigan
12,711 posts, read 13,446,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastwesteastagain View Post
Just because someone is a clinician doesn't make them reputable or speaking to the recognized norms of psychology. I wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that these two speak for the mainstream.
The mainstream of the psychiatric profession is now largely silent on such things because of political pressure. This is well known; see Rind et al. controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for an example, one of the first in the west since the Inquisition ended, of politicians openly claiming a right to determine what scientists may say or not say.
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,895,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
The mainstream of the psychiatric profession is now largely silent on such things because of political pressure. This is well known; see Rind et al. controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for an example, one of the first in the west since the Inquisition ended, of politicians openly claiming a right to determine what scientists may say or not say.
Sorry, I'm calling BS. I am well-versed in what mainstream psychological practices are. There are plenty of mainstream researchers and clinicians in the field working for accurate assessment and cautious interrogation strategies to prevent leading questions with victims, to ensure that alleged perpetrators are not falsely accused or convicted. Look at Saul Kassin's research, off the top of my head. I have been down this road with you before and am not interested in doing so again, although I will continue to assert that you are making statements that are NOT supported by mainstream psychological or psychiatric sources. You insist on quoting fringe groups and "experts," or doing what is at the heart of the Rind case (interpreting results somewhat liberally to support deviant behavior) which is fine, but identify them as such.

Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 07-31-2012 at 10:21 AM..
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,526,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Question-begging. I wouldn't call a society that treats children the way OP's nephew is likely to be treated "civilized", yet here we are.
We have no way of predicting outcome, but we can look at history where the majority of sexual assaults against children are either not reported or not prosecuted. Sorry if you find concern for the victim objectionable.

Last edited by Zimbochick; 07-31-2012 at 10:46 AM..
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:14 PM
 
13,976 posts, read 25,869,590 times
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I do think we are too quick to label children as sex offenders. Both of these kids need help, but the 12 year old shouldn't be written off merely because he was the perpetrator. He is also a child.

There are many options for first offenders in other areas. Start a fire? The local fire department most likely has a program for that. Steal another kid's Iphone? Again, there is a court program along the lines of Scared Straight.

Why aren't there options besides a lifelong label when it comes to sexual issues?
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,526,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
I do think we are too quick to label children as sex offenders. Both of these kids need help, but the 12 year old shouldn't be written off merely because he was the perpetrator. He is also a child.

There are many options for first offenders in other areas. Start a fire? The local fire department most likely has a program for that. Steal another kid's Iphone? Again, there is a court program along the lines of Scared Straight.

Why aren't there options besides a lifelong label when it comes to sexual issues?
Agreed. Presently it is a very flawed and ineffectual system.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:42 PM
 
14,294 posts, read 13,146,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
I do think we are too quick to label children as sex offenders. Both of these kids need help, but the 12 year old shouldn't be written off merely because he was the perpetrator. He is also a child.

There are many options for first offenders in other areas. Start a fire? The local fire department most likely has a program for that. Steal another kid's Iphone? Again, there is a court program along the lines of Scared Straight.

Why aren't there options besides a lifelong label when it comes to sexual issues?
This is spot on.
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Old 07-31-2012, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
3,388 posts, read 3,895,719 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
I do think we are too quick to label children as sex offenders. Both of these kids need help, but the 12 year old shouldn't be written off merely because he was the perpetrator. He is also a child.

There are many options for first offenders in other areas. Start a fire? The local fire department most likely has a program for that. Steal another kid's Iphone? Again, there is a court program along the lines of Scared Straight.

Why aren't there options besides a lifelong label when it comes to sexual issues?
At the risk of being redundant, I agree with all of this.
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