Please Educate your Kids About Adoption So Mine Don't Have To (high school, friends)
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Before this thread gets closed...it's unfortunate if anyone is taking this too personally or getting a little too emotional over it. I realize it's a sensitive topic. But I have found it very interesting to read other points of view on this, and be able to share mine. This is something I think few people who are not minority have understood, and I think Parallel JJ Cat explained it perfectly.
No child is racist, and I don't think that messages from outside influences can make a child "racist." I think the child can get notions from these messages that affect how they perceive others. Even black children get messages about other black people based on skin tone. It's not like these messages only affect white children. All kids hear them, and while they may not consciously decide to believe them, it just happens. If no one counteracts those messages, what choice would they have to accept them?
I think it's just something to be aware of. I'm quite sure that no one here is deliberately raising their child to be biased. I'm not raising mine to be biased against anyone either. But I am aware that she may hear or see things that may cause it, and it's up to me to correct that.
Believe it or not, I've found the most hurtful, harmful comments to my dd have come from not white people, but other black people, and it is because they have grown up with and accepted these subtle messages about what is beautiful and what is not. My dd is often mistaken for biracial because she has long curly hair and light skin, and when black people compliment her, it is often in the tone of "She's so pretty, so she must be mixed." As if it's not possible for a pretty girl to have two black parents. Also a huge insult to me, as if I'm too black or too ugly to have a pretty child. I make sure I correct people firmly, and make sure she can hear me, so she knows that what they are saying is wrong.
Again, this is all just something that most white parents don't have to face or deal with, because their child's skin is not an issue. But I think just because it's something that your child doesn't have to personally deal with doesn't mean it isn't something to be aware of.
This may well be true for kids/people that don't have any actual real life close interaction with kids of different races.
I would be interested to see whether the subjects of those types of tests actually lived in any kind of mixed neighborhood.
I would imagine kids that grow up close friends with kids of different races put their real life experience over that of any implicit racist stuff they may come into contact with. Their positive real life interactions should counteract other influences. Because when it comes down to it, kids aren't stupid enough to put the implied superiority of a Princess on tv over that of their real life friends.
Wow, did you completely miss the point.
More black people are showing a positive bias for whites than whites show towards black. So apparently those kids are "stupid enough" to put the implicit superiority of whites over blacks.
OR
Accept, that what it really tells us, is that the cultural implications are stronger than the personal ones.
Before this thread gets closed...it's unfortunate if anyone is taking this too personally or getting a little too emotional over it. I realize it's a sensitive topic. But I have found it very interesting to read other points of view on this, and be able to share mine. This is something I think few people who are not minority have understood, and I think Parallel JJ Cat explained it perfectly.
No child is racist, and I don't think that messages from outside influences can make a child "racist." I think the child can get notions from these messages that affect how they perceive others. Even black children get messages about other black people based on skin tone. It's not like these messages only affect white children. All kids hear them, and while they may not consciously decide to believe them, it just happens. If no one counteracts those messages, what choice would they have to accept them?
I think it's just something to be aware of. I'm quite sure that no one here is deliberately raising their child to be biased. I'm not raising mine to be biased against anyone either. But I am aware that she may hear or see things that may cause it, and it's up to me to correct that.
Believe it or not, I've found the most hurtful, harmful comments to my dd have come from not white people, but other black people, and it is because they have grown up with and accepted these subtle messages about what is beautiful and what is not. My dd is often mistaken for biracial because she has long curly hair and light skin, and when black people compliment her, it is often in the tone of "She's so pretty, so she must be mixed." As if it's not possible for a pretty girl to have two black parents. Also a huge insult to me, as if I'm too black or too ugly to have a pretty child. I make sure I correct people firmly, and make sure she can hear me, so she knows that what they are saying is wrong.
Again, this is all just something that most white parents don't have to face or deal with, because their child's skin is not an issue. But I think just because it's something that your child doesn't have to personally deal with doesn't mean it isn't something to be aware of.
I absolutely agree. Totally.
I am just beyond exasperated with giving a perfectly valid example of a little girl's lack of prejudice, and having it disputed. Of course we're aware of it, and just because she doesn't have to deal with it personally (although she might, she's the minority in our hood) she will, on behalf of her friends, no doubt. I just don't see the need to disrupt the innocent phase of childhood until we need to.
More black people are showing a positive bias for whites than whites show towards black. So apparently those kids are "stupid enough" to put the implicit superiority of whites over blacks.
OR
Accept, that what it really tells us, is that the cultural implications are stronger than the personal ones.
And this is the mistake people make...thinking that a parent's message of 'all people are the same' is going to outweigh the message the rest of the world is sending.
Your kids (general 'your' in this case, not aimed at anyone specific) aren't magic. Their brains work the same way as everyone else's.
It's like how when you look at a pattern on a tiled floor or at the bark of a tree you sometimes see faces. Our brains are wired to look for patterns that resemble faces...it really helps when you're looking out for enemies on the plains or looking for fellow members of your tribe. It's a little piece of left-over wiring that sometimes get tripped.
Forming associations is another little left-over bit of wiring. There was a time when knowing 'us' from 'them' was important to survival.
It's not that simple, but your brain is going to form associations whether you like it or not because that's what brains do. And some of those associations are going to be about race or gender.
More black people are showing a positive bias for whites than whites show towards black. So apparently those kids are "stupid enough" to put the implicit superiority of whites over blacks.
OR
Accept, that what it really tells us, is that the cultural implications are stronger than the personal ones.
You are so bound and determined to see the worst, that you DO NOT READ MY POSTS. You SNIPPED the last part which addressed that very thing. How rude you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus
I totally agree that it's abhorrent that black kids should be getting a negative view of their own race from the media. That's disgusting.
I am just beyond exasperated with giving a perfectly valid example of a little girl's lack of prejudice, and having it disputed. Of course we're aware of it, and just because she doesn't have to deal with it personally (although she might, she's the minority in our hood) she will, on behalf of her friends, no doubt. I just don't see the need to disrupt the innocent phase of childhood until we need to.
I honestly believe your child has no concept of prejudice, and she's just as sweet and innocent as she can be. I think you're very lucky for this not to have to be an issue for her. If I were in your situation, I wouldn't want to disrupt her innocence either.
And this is the mistake people make...thinking that a parent's message of 'all people are the same' is going to outweigh the message the rest of the world is sending.
Your kids (general 'your' in this case, not aimed at anyone specific) aren't magic. Their brains work the same way as everyone else's.
It's like how when you look at a pattern on a tiled floor or at the bark of a tree you sometimes see faces. Our brains are wired to look for patterns that resemble faces...it really helps when you're looking out for enemies on the plains or looking for fellow members of your tribe. It's a little piece of left-over wiring that sometimes get tripped.
Forming associations is another little left-over bit of wiring. There was a time when knowing 'us' from 'them' was important to survival.
It's not that simple, but your brain is going to form associations whether you like it or not because that's what brains do. And some of those associations are going to be about race or gender.
Well then we're all screwed. Never mind that I purposely kept my child out of all white schools so that she wouldn't have all these issues. I don't know why I bothered. Obviously, it's just a matter of time before she succumbs to the natural racist tendencies in her brain.
You and lkb are correct. Let's just segregate everybody and get it over with, because what's the point?
I honestly believe your child has no concept of prejudice, and she's just as sweet and innocent as she can be. I think you're very lucky for this not to have to be an issue for her. If I were in your situation, I wouldn't want to disrupt her innocence either.
Thanks Anna, I really really appreciate that. Give your little girl a big hug from me.
Well then we're all screwed. Never mind that I purposely kept my child out of all white schools so that she wouldn't have all these issues. I don't know why I bothered. Obviously, it's just a matter of time before she succumbs to the natural racist tendencies in her brain.
You and lkb are correct. Let's just segregate everybody and get it over with, because what's the point?
The point is that while you can't stop your brain from forming associations, you CAN be aware that it happens. And by holding onto that awareness, you can check your own reactions and privilege and make corrections as needed.
Again, people who display low overt prejudice test the same on association tests as people with high overt prejudice UNLESS they are made aware of their implicit associations. This is a group of people who when asked agree that racism is wrong...they say all of the right things and have the right beliefs, but they test just like people who are willing to say outright that blacks aren't as good as whites.
But the awareness of their implicit associations allows them to battle back against their subconscious brain. Which is a great thing!! A thing that can only happen is they acknowledge that their brain forms associations without their permission or even their knowledge.
You can't beat racism by ignoring it. You beat it by awareness on everyone's side and an understanding of where it comes from. And part of that is acknowledging that it isn't always this loud overt thing that only bad stupid people do.
Saying that children are color blind or don't know anything about racism until they encounter a loud overt example of it from one of those bad, stupid people is dangerous. It ignores the mountain of science on the subject and discounts the experiences of those who actually deal the effects of inflict racism. Maybe your child is the one little girl on the planet who has a brain that doesn't form associations like everyone else's...but sadly she lives in a world with a bunch of normal people whose brains do work that way, so even if that's so, racism is still her problem too.
BTW...I don't think your child is racist. I don't think she's prejudice. I just think the both of you are human.
The point is that while you can't stop your brain from forming associations, you CAN be aware that it happens. And by holding onto that awareness, you can check your own reactions and privilege and make corrections as needed.
Again, people who display low overt prejudice test the same on association tests as people with high overt prejudice UNLESS they are made aware of their implicit associations. This is a group of people who when asked agree that racism is wrong...they say all of the right things and have the right beliefs, but they test just like people who are willing to say outright that blacks aren't as good as whites.
But the awareness of their implicit associations allows them to battle back against their subconscious brain. Which is a great thing!! A thing that can only happen is they acknowledge that their brain forms associations without their permission or even their knowledge.
You can't beat racism by ignoring it. You beat it by awareness on everyone's side and an understanding of where it comes from. And part of that is acknowledging that it isn't always this loud overt thing that only bad stupid people do.
Saying that children are color blind or don't know anything about racism until they encounter a loud overt example of it from one of those bad, stupid people is dangerous. It ignores the mountain of science on the subject and discounts the experiences of those who actually deal the effects of inflict racism. Maybe your child is the one little girl on the planet who has a brain that doesn't form associations like everyone else's...but sadly she lives in a world with a bunch of normal people whose brains do work that way, so even if that's so, racism is still her problem too.
BTW...I don't think your child is racist. I don't think she's prejudice. I just think the both of you are human.
Excuse me, where did I say I was ignoring it? I will address it when the time presents itself. I see no reason to do it now, when she's got no idea about it and nobody she knows is dealing with it, AFAIK.
What is it you think I should tell her? I don't want to plant seeds that are not there. In order to tell her about racism, I'm going to have to tell her that her friends are different, and that some people think they're inferior. I don't know what is going to be gained by that at this point in time. I'm not discounting those who experience it, and I don't know why you guys keep ignoring that I said I'll deal with it, when it becomes necessary.
I didn't say racism wasn't her problem, it's everyone's problem. I don't think it's wrong to let a little child have their innocence for as long as they can. I know it'll be over soon enough, and sad to say it already is for some poster's kids.
I understand that people are influenced by cultural mores and our environment, but I really think you all are missing the point that this is not a child that lives in a white neighborhood, has mainly white friends, or is surrounded by a majority of her own race. I am aware that she needs to be empathetic of others and what they go through, and she will be - but right now she's not exposed to enough mainstream tv or movies or anything else that you are so certain are forming her views on race.
Her neighbors are black, most of her classmates are black, all the kids at her neighborhood playground are black - those are her associations - and I doubt the mountain of science you're reffering to has been conducted on a kid in her position in 2012.
So I don't see the point of taking a child who does what we'd all like to do - take people on their own merit - and inflict our adult views on race and how we think she should deal with it on her. She's behaving exactly how she's supposed to be behaving. Why would I want to mess that up?
I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't bring up that there aren't enough black Disney princesses herself, that would be the norm for her.
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