Lies we tell our children (music, high school, grow up, teach)
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That won't be necessary. All you have to do is gently encourage different dreams. Parents have more power than they realize. She'll forget about the astronaut thing in time.
WHY should she?!
Even if she never accomplishes her dream to be an astronaut, there are many other careers that she could flourish in with the same degree(s) she earned in her pursuit.
. But let's face it: most women aren't engineering material. Only nine percent of engineers are female. I'm not worried about it.
No, no and no. It's not that most women aren't engineering material! It is the FACT that many girls are not even given the chance to excel in math and science because of the ridiculous notion that females cannot learn those subjects. Women are just as capable as men when it comes to learning math and science.
Well I just read this thread, and it cracks me up a bit. In college I lived on a honors floor that was filled with female engineering majors. I don't recall a single one picking their major because of their parents. They picked engineering because--imagine the shock--they were women who like engineering!
My 80+ year old mother, who is very conservative and religious, was a chemistry major at a time when women generally were not chemistry majors. She was one of only two women chemists to work at a large corporation when she got out of college. There were men in particular who questioned her choices. My mother was able to do what she wanted because HER mother told her she is capable and able to follow her dreams. My mother would be in shock if she read WesternPilgrim's posts! You can be a woman, a great mother and like those pesky, difficult subjects like engineering or science.
For a more scientific view on this topic, here is an interesting study; http://www.aauw.org/learn/research/upload/whysofew.pdf. It talks about how girls' math scores have risen with changes in education, eliminating much of the former gap that existed between girls and boys. It also talks about many environmental factors that have dissuaded girls from pursuing STEM careers. One of the main factors may be that girls have NOT been told told they can "do anything they want to do." (lol):
"Dweck’s research shows that when a girl believes that she can become smarter and learn what she needs to know in STEM subjects—as opposed to believing that a person is either born with science and math ability or not—she is more likely to
succeed in a STEM field."
"Plant et al. (2009) reported an increase in middle school girls’ interest in engineering after the girls were exposed to a 20-minute narrative delivered by a computer-generated female agent describing the lives of female engineers
and the benefits of engineering careers."
OP, you might want to mosey down to the library and pick up The End of Men by Hanna Rosin. In there you will read that women are currently outperforming men in almost all professional areas. More women graduate college, women hold more executive and managerial roles, and the percentage of high wage earners continues to rise for the "fairer sex" while dropping for males.
So, perhaps your sons can't be anything they want to be anymore, but watch out for your daughters.
Mattie, I think this is actually what Western Pilgrim is afraid of. What will happen to all those men who would repress women and their dreams if women become fully integrated in our society? He might feel a bit less in power after all. All day long he would have to deal with strong, courageous powerful women who have minds of their owns and aren't waiting around to be saved by men.
Let's look at this from a different point of view. Let's look at it from the point of view of the educated men who are looking for women with whom they can converse. With whom they feel challenged intellectually. With whom they feel equal and want to build a life with.
My son is a physicist who has worked hard and long to get his education and his foot in the field of his choice. He laments the lack of women in his field because along with all the other things which make people attracted to each other, he likes to TALK. He likes to discuss literature, research etc with a woman who can hold her own. I doubt very much he would ever be serious about a woman without some interest in his field. That makes sense. He is encouraging his little sisters to study math and science. When he is home he takes them to the planetarium and other science oriented activities. He's hoping to find more women who share math and science love as much as he does and he tells me the men he works with are also delighted to find a woman with the strengths they admire in their male co workers.
Only if you haven't been paying attention. And I'm finding that happens a lot in discussions like this one. The feminists (and their fellow travelers) immediately see red, and suddenly I'm Archie Bunker, or Adolf Hitler, or their alcoholic wife-beating father, or whatever caricature of a man drives the war they are waging against nature.
That's what makes women feminists? Let's see, personally speaking, Archie Bunker was a fictional character and taken as such, Adolf Hitler was .... Adolf Hitler, and my father didn't drink and he didn't beat his wife.
My beliefs about the strength of women are largely built on how my father raised me, BTW. He liked strong, intelligent, independent women who didn't need to rely on men to kick butt in the world and didn't consider themselves the weaker sex. He supported women. He didn't banish them to second-class citizenship.
Though why I'm responding I'm not sure because, considering the fact that I was raised by members of the Greatest Generation who believed women were equal to men and should be self-sufficient, smart and grab life with both hands (not wait in the kitchen for The Man to come home), I'm still having trouble comprehending that your views on women and theories about life are actually legitimate and not put out there just to pull chains. They are that foreign to me. I suspect that's true for many of the posters on this board.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 09-06-2012 at 01:36 PM..
My beliefs about the strength of women are largely built on how my father raised me, BTW. He liked strong, intelligent, independent women who didn't need to rely on men to kick butt in the world and didn't consider themselves the weaker sex. He supported women. He didn't banish them to second-class citizenship.
Me too. We hauled wood right along side the boys. We used the ax and the splitter. We shoveled, raked and everythign else. Boys scrubbed toilets. We all took care of the joint duties of living... well jointly.
It was that he didn't banish us to second class. He knew we girls would face challenges in a world that come a long way toward equality but was not there yet. He wanted us to KNOW we were smart and capable. He definitely did not want us having to rely on our bodies and the attraction of a man for our livelihood thus freeing us to pursue love.
First rule of holes: When you're in one, stop digging.
One, your remark is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Second, a good parent teaches his daughter to be self-sufficient and to make her own way in the world. For even the best of marriages does not mean complete security.
Exactly right. I'm so glad my parents did that and I'm glad they weren't like the OP is.
Okay, so let me sum up all of the OP's arguments here:
Women have one specific role in society: to be a housewife and mother. Or, failing that, a nun. That's where women are happiest and that's where they belong. If a woman is silly enough to think she's capable of being an engineer, mathematician, or scientist, she just needs the big powerful men in her life to remind her of her place. After all, think of the future children she's going to have! (What if she can't have babies, by the way? I guess she can still be a housewife).
It amazes me in this day and age that there are people who still think this way, but the OP evidently does, and he obviously found and married a woman who wanted that life as well. Great for them and all, but I certainly feel for their children, especially daughters, if that's what they're being taught. Way to limit their options.
When I was growing up I wanted to be many things, an artist, a teacher, a writer, an ice skater, a DJ on a famous radio station, an actress, a cook. My parents indulged me. They never said I couldn't, or wasn't good enough. They let me take skating lessons and encouraged my writing. I learned in my own time where my talents were. My dad is a network engineer, and he was a computer geek before he took that position, so I grew up around computers and I liked working with them--ever since middle school (guess I am showing my age here). He encouraged me to follow in his footsteps in some fashion and I'm glad I did. It's landed me a great job with a great company that allows me to build on my skills. He could have shot me down, but he didn't. I even remember complaining about some of the more difficult math classes and how I wanted to quit, but he wouldn't allow me to because he knew I could do it, and he was right. Had he shut me down and steered me in a different direction I would be living a very different life.
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