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See, I have qualms about the government being involved in banning harmful "therapies." Then I read something like this and I understand why people feel the need to ban harmful "therapies."
I know people want to believe that we've gotten past this sort of thing, but such therapies don't exist in a vacuum. Supply and demand...
I do understand though where you are coming from in terms of feeling uncomfortable preventing parents from raising their children 'their way'. It tears my heart apart to know that there are children in this world being raised by parents who will make their lives a misery. Yet these parents very often do believe that they are trying to save the child...they are doing it for love, as it were, even as they drive their child to take their own life.
Like you, I am wary of the government attempting to control what belief systems parents raise their children in. At the same time, I find it so difficult to reconcile that with the knowledge that some belief systems can be very toxic to a child who is given no choice. In the end I have to come down on the side of parental freedom even KNOWING there are child being harmed RIGHT NOW because of it.
I'm fully comfortable and delighted though with the CA law because again, it isn't the same situation as a parent teaching something in the home. This is more like forcing a black child to attend KKK meetings...and paying for the privilege.
I know people want to believe that we've gotten past this sort of thing, but such therapies don't exist in a vacuum. Supply and demand...
I do understand though where you are coming from in terms of feeling uncomfortable preventing parents from raising their children 'their way'. It tears my heart apart to know that there are children in this world being raised by parents who will make their lives a misery. Yet these parents very often do believe that they are trying to save the child...they are doing it for love, as it were, even as they drive their child to take their own life.
Like you, I am wary of the government attempting to control what belief systems parents raise their children in. At the same time, I find it so difficult to reconcile that with the knowledge that some belief systems can be very toxic to a child who is given no choice. In the end I have to come down on the side of parental freedom even KNOWING there are child being harmed RIGHT NOW because of it.
Thank you for articulating what I was trying to communicate earlier. I pretty much agree with everything you've said here. It is a difficult thing to reconcile two competing principles that I hold dear (protecting children from harm and allowing citizens to make their own decisions). On the whole, I am glad that the kids in California will not find themselves dragged into a charlatan's office for a damaging "treatment," no matter how good the intentions of their loved ones.
I saw this on my internet homepage. It also indicated that those who would be put out of business, those who have made this the focus of their psychology practices, have immediately mobilized against it.
Great. I hope it gets to court where they will have to try to present evidence that it is effective and not harmful. Then all their lies and unethical harmful practices will 'come out of the closet' for everyone to see.
I do not think it should ever have been removed from the list of mental health conditions since that would have at least put the youth in counseling to help them sort it out and the LGBT community would not be blaming people who believe in God's laws for the suicides of the youth.
Wait. You think the LGBT community are the only people speaking out against this "therapy"?
Sorry. Wrong.
I take it the people who "believe in God's law" are Christians? And you think the LGBT community is blaming Christians for young people committing suicide? Wow. News to me. Christians as a whole are NOT being blamed. People are blaming a so-called "therapy" that causes harm and inflects damage on the people subjected to it.
Last edited by DewDropInn; 10-01-2012 at 09:37 PM..
There are people out there who will swear up and down that this therapy worked for them, though.
Of course they will. Then a few years later they come out of the closet and say they lied.
Alan Chambers, the president of Exodus said earlier this year that 99.9% of Exodus members had not changed their sexual orientation. They have now dropped so called 'conversion' or 'reparative' therapy.
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Originally Posted by springfieldva
I don't buy it. But if an adult (or an informed teenager) wants to seek such therapy, I don't know that it is right to completely *ban* them from doing so. Maybe they are the type who need to know that they "tried everything" before they can gain a sense of self acceptance. Maybe they are bisexual and really want to enjoy having a monogamous relationship with a person of the opposite sex but have some conflicted feelings that they need to work through.
There are ethical competent therapists who can help someone resolve their issues about being homosexual.
But these unethical 'conversion therapists' try to force their religious-based negative views about homosexuality on their clients and ignore the evidence-based views of mainstream health professionals.
Registered therapists using this type of 'therapy' should be required to obtain informed consent from the clients. This would mean that they have to present valid scientific evidence to support their approach (which they can't) and provide clients with evidence-based information about homosexuality and about the harmful effects of attempting to 'change' someone's sexual orientation. That way the clients can maked an informed decision about whether they want to waste their time and money on something that not only doesn't work, but can make them feel even worse about themselves.
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Originally Posted by springfieldva
I suppose there is also the chance that earlier sexual abuse/trauma has made them confused about what they are feeling, too. If so, maybe a therapy like this could be helpful (?).
Conversion therapy would only be more confusing and harmful. An ethical therapist can show them all the studies that show child sexual abuse does not 'cause' homosexuality.
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Originally Posted by springfieldva
I agree that parents shouldn't be dragging their kids into and forcing their kids through a therapy like this. I can see how that could be very damaging in so many ways and on so many levels. This is so very personal and definitely not the sort of therapy that a person can seek out for another person.
I don't know if it works or it doesn't work. And I'm certainly not advocating for or against it one way or the other. I have seen people on various talk shows claim that the therapy worked for them. If an adult or a teenager (of his/her own free will) thinks that the therapy might be right for them and worth trying, than who am I to judge them? I would imagine that part of the therapy would involve *why* the person feels the need to undergo the therapy in the first place - and that could be very eye opening for the person.
This all strikes me as very personal in nature, something that should be decided at the individual level rather than an all out group ban or approval.
It would be wrong to force this sort of therapy onto another person but it would be equally wrong to deny them the therapy if that is, indeed, what they want for *themselves*.
Actually it could be very harmful when these 'therapists' impose their religious-based negative views and quack theories on clients.
This type of 'therapy' is now being banned in the UK. An investigation was sparked off by an undercover Journalist who taped his sessions with 2 of these 'therapists' and reported them to the BACP.
It was disgusting to read how these 'therapists' tried to steer this guy into saying that he had a poor relationship with his father when he actually had had a good relationship. The woman also tried to convince him that he was probably sexually abused as a child by someone in his family - which he wasn't. That's the sort of thing that these 'therapists' think 'causes' homosexuality (despite no valid evidence for these idesa and plenty of evidence against). It's really despicable the lengths some of these religious 'therapists' will go to try to support their own wacky 'theories'. She even told him that prayer can cure HIV -not that the journalist was HIV positive anyway.
This woman was highly unethical as well as incompetent and unprofessional (as was the male therapist). I'm glad she ended up being deregistered. These people need to be exposed for what they are.
This would be my answer for my child and the state could stay out of the business of our family: video - Brent I do not think it should ever have been removed from the list of mental health conditions since that would have at least put the youth in counseling to help them sort it out and the LGBT community would not be blaming people who believe in God's laws for the suicides of the youth. This is a mental health condition that encompasses much more than "who you love", please read extensively before deciding what path to take with a child. The sexual acts and risks are high and I can't blame the parents for wanting to try to protect their children. I about barf every time I hear "you can't help who you love" and read the list of abusive sexual practices. Protect your children.
Disgusting propaganda from a religious-based anti-gay group.
Aren't lying, bearing false witness, slandering and swindling sins?
I get that they basically humiliate the individual, but again if they ban it in one state because the lawmakers in that state feel there is an inherent DANGERto children, then why has this not been banned across the board? I mean did all 50 states take their time to ban lead paint once they knew the dangers of lead paint? My point is that if this therapy is so "dangerous" then where are the parents who have been arrested and prosecuted for sending their children to said therapists? It appears California is the only state (soon followed by NJ) to ban this. What I have challenged here is that is this really dangerous? Because if it was I would think that this would not be allowed ANYWHERE, and not just California. And yes I did read about the 1997 U.S. case, in which the Ninth Circuit addressed conversion therapy in the context of an asylum application. If the court is saying this is a human rights violation, then why was it made available, and since it is available in 49 other states then don't the parent's have the ultimate say so? Until that can be answered I will continue to ask this question.
This would be my answer for my child and the state could stay out of the business of our family: video - Brent I do not think it should ever have been removed from the list of mental health conditions since that would have at least put the youth in counseling to help them sort it out and the LGBT community would not be blaming people who believe in God's laws for the suicides of the youth. This is a mental health condition that encompasses much more than "who you love", please read extensively before deciding what path to take with a child. The sexual acts and risks are high and I can't blame the parents for wanting to try to protect their children. I about barf every time I hear "you can't help who you love" and read the list of abusive sexual practices. Protect your children.
Yeah I do remember when we as parents were once allowed to do what we felt was best for our children. Those were the days. It doesn't necessarily mean that other parents will agree, but hey we go live in a country that (last time I checked) allowed us the freedom to choose, and as parents sometimes our choices are not popular, but we make the choices we as parents feel are the best ones for our children. We can protect our own children.
I get that they basically humiliate the individual, but again if they ban it in one state because the lawmakers in that state feel there is an inherent DANGERto children, then why has this not been banned across the board? I mean did all 50 states take their time to ban lead paint once they knew the dangers of lead paint? My point is that if this therapy is so "dangerous" then where are the parents who have been arrested and prosecuted for sending their children to said therapists? It appears California is the only state (soon followed by NJ) to ban this. What I have challenged here is that is this really dangerous? Because if it was I would think that this would not be allowed ANYWHERE, and not just California. And yes I did read about the 1997 U.S. case, in which the Ninth Circuit addressed conversion therapy in the context of an asylum application. If the court is saying this is a human rights violation, then why was it made available, and since it is available in 49 other states then don't the parent's have the ultimate say so? Until that can be answered I will continue to ask this question.
The thing is, there are several links up thread with scientific studies that document that "reparative therapy" does actually cause harm, beyond humiliation. So this not being a nation-wide decision doesn't speak to how harmful the "therapy" is. That it is dangerous isn't really up for debate, the data say it is. Whether people should be able to choose an ineffective and harmful "therapy" for their minor children is up for debate. I am not thrilled that this is taking place at the state level through government intervention, either, but I believe the reason is that therapists/psychologists are licensed through the state, not through the federal government.
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