Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I find it rather odd that so many parents insist it's perfectly fine to allow kids to drink until they're drunk out of their minds -- and an all-night drinking party is not about drinking a beer or two, it's about getting completely wasted by midnight and then continuing on, often with the help of other drugs like ecstacy.
It doesn't matter all that much though -- the exact same kind of parents who provide alcohol and allow their sons and daughters to drink the whole night away are not the kinds of parents who teach their children any kind of self control or restraint. They're not expected to control how much liquor they consume, they are not expected to abstain from sex and they're not expected to show self-restraint in much of anything.
Parents who teach their children that they'd better be home and give them a curfew and that they'd better not be stumbling into the house drunk are also the parents who teach their kids some kind of morals and self-control.
What parents are you talking about? Steubenville parents, or posters in this thread?
And again I have to point out that rapes occur 24 hours a day, whether children have curfews or not, and sober teens rape and are raped.
Your posts is so sanctimonious and offensive, really it is. I have never personally met a parent who condones a child going out and getting blind drunk. I live in an area where parents, generally speaking, are very strict, but still girls get sexually assaulted.
I agree with you -- although it's hard to know for certain in individual cases. If these same kids had only apple cider or koolaid to drink, would their party have turned out like this? I tend to doubt it, and it's just like bar fights between drunks that end in homicide, most wouldn't fight and commit homicide when completely sober.
This really is not the same. Usually those sort of homicides are not intentional/premeditated, or happen as a result of feeling their life is threatened in the moment -- someone who rapes always intends to have sex with the person. They did not accidentally rape someone simply because they were drunk.
This is just the wrong way to approach these issues. Again, the main problem is that most rapists do not even understand what they are doing is rape/coercion. Most rapists have no concept of what consent is whether drunk or not. This is the problem...
Those who rape drunk usually rape/coerce while sober, too. They do this because they are rapists, not because they are at a party or they drank alcohol.
Quote:
Parents who teach their children that they'd better be home and give them a curfew and that they'd better not be stumbling into the house drunk are also the parents who teach their kids some kind of morals and self-control.
I think it's a mistake to assume none of the parents of the kids in this case taught them about morals or self-control. I'm sure some of them did have curfews & were fully aware they were breaking rules by partying. It appears what they didn't teach them about was what constitutes as rape, consent, victim-blaming, & how to respond as a bystander.
Last edited by thethreefoldme; 03-24-2013 at 07:20 AM..
This really is not the same. Usually those sort of homicides are not intentional/premeditated, or happen as a result of feeling their life is threatened in the moment -- someone who rapes always intends to have sex with the person. They did not accidentally rape someone simply because they were drunk.
This is just the wrong way to approach these issues. Again, the main problem is that most rapists do not even understand what they are doing is rape/coercion. Most rapists have no concept of what consent is whether drunk or not. This is the problem...
Those who rape drunk usually rape/coerce while sober, too. They do this because they are rapists, not because they are at a party or they drank alcohol.
I think it's a mistake to assume none of the parents of the kids in this case taught them about morals or self-control. I'm sure some of them did have curfews & were fully aware they were breaking rules by partying. It appears what they didn't teach them about was what constitutes as rape, consent, victim-blaming, & how to respond as a bystander.
Well said, you have brought up the most important points about our culture accepts rape.
We have a real problem in how our culture approaches rape. If you look up rape prevention, a thousand articles will come up on how to keep our girls safe, and every single one of them will mention being vigilant around alcohol. What we don't have are a thousand articles explaining to our girls AND our boys what rape actually is, and that sex has rules about real consent and if those rules are ever broken a young man will find himself in prison, and deservedly so.
What we have now is a culture where when a girl who drinks, or has had sex with the boy before, or is wearing a short skirt will often not report a rape because she feels she brought in on herself, and because of that boys know they can get away with crossing the line into rape. On every college campus there are boys who have a reputation for forcibly getting sex from girls, if a girl is lucky she will be warned in time, but those boys aren't in jail because they use all the culturally accepted excuses, and get girls to believe it was her own fault.
Sexual assault is a real problem, and parent's refusal to discuss and educate head on about RAPE, not drinking, not parties, not curfews (yes, those are very important, but separate issues) is a real problem. Teach them about sexual assault, exactly what it is, and that it is a devastating crime with devastating consequences. Look up the legal definition with them, and show them what the legal consequences will be, and that no excuse is ever acceptable. We are not done at teaching girls to avoid rapists, we need to teach boys not to EVER cross the line, and to report anyone who does. Rape should be rare, not commonplace a "good kid" doesn't rape, a "good kid" should have been taught to never sexually touch a girl who is too intoxicated to stand up, and that if he does he will be prosecuted.
The parents who have posted about talking to their boys about rape are doing everything in their power to raise good men, parents who raise boys to have empathy towards other humans, including women are raising good men, (not sissies as some morons might say) those boys will be a gift to the girls and women they meet in their lives. We need more of those boys and men to end this rape culture. I applaud those parents, this is hard stuff to talk about, but we owe it to our kids to teach them clear boundaries, and proper behavior, that's a parents job. No one ever said being a parent was easy.
Here's a good article to start a discussion with. This case should have made it clear to everyone that the status quo is just not working. I'm very grateful to the victim and her parents in this case for having the courage to prosecute, I'm certain their courage has saved some girls from rape by bring these problems to light. I'm just sorry she had to deal with so much additional trauma from friends of her rapists.
"Current research demonstrates that most rapists already know they don’t have consent. It’s the rest of us who are confused." I found this particularly compelling.
Well said, you have brought up the most important points about our culture accepts rape.
We have a real problem in how our culture approaches rape. If you look up rape prevention, a thousand articles will come up on how to keep our girls safe, and every single one of them will mention being vigilant around alcohol. What we don't have are a thousand articles explaining to our girls AND our boys what rape actually is, and that sex has rules about real consent and if those rules are ever broken a young man will find himself in prison, and deservedly so.
I think this is not quite right. Knowing what rape is is the bare minimum and not the goal IMO. The goal should be teaching our children what emotionally and physically healthy sexual relationships are.
If you go over to the relationship group, you will see examples of what I consider massively unhealthy, sick and twisted attitudes about sex. Men who think that sex is something that women owe and hold as some kind of reward or punishment, who don't see women as PEOPLE in their own right. Sex as a transaction, buy cow, get regular access. With this attitude, if it is not given, if they cannot buy a cow, then they have the right to take the milk. Because this is something that they are owed.
Our culture buys into this attitude. You see women using their sexuality as a currency a leverage.
In my opinion, it is these root attitudes which makes rape culture possible. What we wind up with is some sick F'ers. A person who sees a woman as a person, sexuality a mutually beneficial act between people is never going to rape. AFAIC someone who would WANT non-consensual sex has been raised with some seriously flawed attitudes about sexuality and women to the point of being sick in the head.
I think this is not quite right. Knowing what rape is is the bare minimum and not the goal IMO. The goal should be teaching our children what emotionally and physically healthy sexual relationships are.
If you go over to the relationship group, you will see examples of what I consider massively unhealthy, sick and twisted attitudes about sex. Men who think that sex is something that women owe and hold as some kind of reward or punishment, who don't see women as PEOPLE in their own right. Sex as a transaction, buy cow, get regular access. With this attitude, if it is not given, if they cannot buy a cow, then they have the right to take the milk. Because this is something that they are owed.
Our culture buys into this attitude. You see women using their sexuality as a currency a leverage.
In my opinion, it is these root attitudes which makes rape culture possible. What we wind up with is some sick F'ers. A person who sees a woman as a person, sexuality a mutually beneficial act between people is never going to rape. AFAIC someone who would WANT non-consensual sex has been raised with some seriously flawed attitudes about sexuality and women to the point of being sick in the head.
I agree with many of your points. But why do those attitudes exist?
They exist because there is no wide-spread education on rape or consent from a young age. Many people have grown up believing such things because they learned those behaviors by witnessing them &/or they never were confronted/educated about those views being wrong. They believe it is socially acceptable in general & those who oppose the view are in the minority.
[quote=thethreefoldme;28825047]I agree with many of your points. But why do those attitudes exist?
[p/quote]
Personally, I blame the christians and their anti-sexuality, sex is a bad/scary/awful thing that we had better not talk about.
Quote:
They exist because there is no wide-spread education on rape or consent from a young age. Many people have grown up believing such things because they learned those behaviors by witnessing them &/or they never were confronted/educated about those views being wrong. They believe it is socially acceptable in general & those who oppose the view are in the minority.
Most of these people do not realize what they are doing is even rape... they think rape is a stranger who hides in a bush & attacks a woman in a dark alley. They believe rape is only rape if it is violent. They believe rape is only rape if the woman was kicking, screaming, & yelling no. They believe no really means yes.
I think this puts the cart before the horse. If we teach our children about healthy sexual relationships, they are never going to have to doubt what rape is.
Personally, I blame the christians and their anti-sexuality, sex is a bad/scary/awful thing that we had better not talk about.
I think this puts the cart before the horse. If we teach our children about healthy sexual relationships, they are never going to have to doubt what rape is.
You are aware that rape occurred prior to Christianity right? And that rape occurs in non-Christian cultures as well? And that rape is not a crime of sexual frustration but one based on power and humiliation. It is MEANT to be humiliating and demeaning. It is not humiliating because of religion.
You are aware that rape occurred prior to Christianity right? And that rape occurs in non-Christian cultures as well? And that rape is not a crime of sexual frustration but one based on power and humiliation. It is MEANT to be humiliating and demeaning. It is not humiliating because of religion.
Indeed. There are a lot of religions that help foster unhealthy attitudes about sex. I was speaking specifically to US history and attitudes. Not very considerate of the rest of the world. But the notion of connecting sex and humiliation, control and pain is a result of the twisted attitudes.
Indeed. There are a lot of religions that help foster unhealthy attitudes about sex. I was speaking specifically to US history and attitudes. Not very considerate of the rest of the world. But the notion of connecting sex and humiliation, control and pain is a result of the twisted attitudes.
A person with a healthy attitude toward sex is not exempt from feeling humiliated/invaded/powerless if raped. Rape predates religion. And humiliating/invading/overpowering someone to show dominance does as well.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
