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Old 04-20-2013, 09:40 AM
 
13,009 posts, read 12,440,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Some silly reasoning/assumptions going on here. It is not selfish to not have kids, but a reason some people decide not to have kids is selfishness. That is one of a dozen reasons people are having fewer kids. I know several couples who say they will not have kids because they are too selfish. Others express this reason without recognizing it as selfishness. They want their time, money, and other assets for themselves and are not interested in the self sacrifice necessary to have kids. For some couples that is the only thing that prevents them from having any children or from having more children. That is different than saying people who do not have kids are selfish - get it? Selfishness can be a reason a lot of people decide not to have kids without everyone who decides not to have kids being selfish. Or, to use terms typically used to explain the fallacy being applied here, being out in the rain may be a reason someone is wet, but that does not mean everyone who is wet has been out in the rain. I really think they should require a basic logic class in high school or at least in college.
But that very selfishness is, in itself, unselfish. Previously, people would simply have kids because it was just what you did and birth control was unreliable anyway and OMG you need to leave a legacy and someone to take care of you when you're old! Now more people are THINKING about what a child needs and requires to thrive and not merely exist. If they don't wish to provide that, they are making a very moral - and ultimately unselfish - decision to not reproduce and provide a child with a subpar upbringing.

People who opt to remain childless however are called selfish all the time, as if it is some sort of moral failing to recognize that you are not an optimal parent.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:41 AM
 
5,280 posts, read 3,342,391 times
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Birth control and greater freedoms and autonomy extended to females in American society. The progress of most any civilization is tied directly to liberating women from being serial breeding machines and allowing them autonomy.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Denver area
21,137 posts, read 22,107,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JrzDefector View Post
People who opt to remain childless however are called selfish all the time, as if it is some sort of moral failing to recognize that you are not an optimal parent.
"all the time"? Really? That's not been my experience at all. Search through this forum. There might be one or two posters who say this but overall, a vast majority of parents will support anyone's decision not to have children. Probably kind of like the ratio of people who say that anyone who chooses to procreate is a selfish "breeder" ruining the planet.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:50 AM
 
5,280 posts, read 3,342,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
"all the time"? Really? That's not been my experience at all. Search through this forum. There might be one or two posters who say this but overall, a vast majority of parents will support anyone's decision not to have children. Probably kind of like the ratio of people who say that anyone who chooses to procreate is a selfish "breeder" ruining the planet.
I have visited this forum for only one other thread, and in that thread, the sentiments he just noted were expressed by at least two defensive parents.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Denver area
21,137 posts, read 22,107,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
"all the time"? Really? That's not been my experience at all. Search through this forum. There might be one or two posters who say this but overall, a vast majority of parents will support anyone's decision not to have children. Probably kind of like the ratio of people who say that anyone who chooses to procreate is a selfish "breeder" ruining the planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cometclear View Post
I have visited this forum for only one other thread, and in that thread, the sentiments he just noted were expressed by at least two defensive parents.
Did you actually read my post? I didn't say it never happened. I said those people were in the minority. The poster said it happened "all the time". You said (at least) two parents. Out of how many that posted?

Just like non-parents who use the term "breeders". There are rude whackadoodles on both ends of the spectrum. Best not to take their opinions too seriously.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:20 AM
 
33,034 posts, read 12,497,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
There are rude whackadoodles on both ends of the spectrum.
Indeed.

One thought that does come to mind is that even though we no longer birth babies in order to have kids to look out for us when we are no longer able to care for ourselves, those who do not have children depend on the rest of us to do so.

For years, my job involved doing county "welfare checks" on elderly people that neighbors, mail carriers, etc. reported as needing assistance.

Even in the most dysfunctional of families, those who'd raised children could generally rally enough support to come up with some sort of plan. Often, the kids had no idea how far downhill things had gone but when notified, stepped up to the plate. Living arrangements were made, kids split up taking them to long delayed medical appts., etc.

Those with no children usually tried to enlist the aid of disinterested nieces and such. It was just sad. Often they ended up living in less than ideal situations, with medical care dependent on the whether the every changing, low-paid staff were motivated enough to follow through or even notice things in the first place.

With people living longer due to better medical care and rates of of dementia in the elderly going up, the situation for people who do not have children to look out for them looks grim.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Denver area
21,137 posts, read 22,107,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Indeed.

One thought that does come to mind is that even though we no longer birth babies in order to have kids to look out for us when we are no longer able to care for ourselves, those who do not have children depend on the rest of us to do so.

For years, my job involved doing county "welfare checks" on elderly people that neighbors, mail carriers, etc. reported as needing assistance.

Even in the most dysfunctional of families, those who'd raised children could generally rally enough support to come up with some sort of plan. Often, the kids had no idea how far downhill things had gone but when notified, stepped up to the plate. Living arrangements were made, kids split up taking them to long delayed medical appts., etc.

Those with no children usually tried to enlist the aid of disinterested nieces and such. It was just sad. Often they ended up living in less than ideal situations, with medical care dependent on the whether the every changing, low-paid staff were motivated enough to follow through or even notice things in the first place.

With people living longer due to better medical care and rates of of dementia in the elderly going up, the situation for people who do not have children to look out for them looks grim.
I'm quite certain that giving birth to a child you don't really want and aren't interested or prepared to raise, with the hopes of ensuring someone exists to take care of you in your old age is not the best solution.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:09 PM
 
19,081 posts, read 21,194,953 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cometclear View Post
Birth control and greater freedoms and autonomy extended to females in American society. The progress of most any civilization is tied directly to liberating women from being serial breeding machines and allowing them autonomy.
Well stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
I'm quite certain that giving birth to a child you don't really want and aren't interested or prepared to raise, with the hopes of ensuring someone exists to take care of you in your old age is not the best solution.
Indeed, although it highlights how important families have always been to our species, and it's not just in old age. Married people, for example, live longer because they have spouses watching out for them. Having some kind of community collective has aided in our survival, and I believe our love and attachments are physiologically tied to these behaviors.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,393 posts, read 29,702,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cometclear View Post
Birth control and greater freedoms and autonomy extended to females in American society. The progress of most any civilization is tied directly to liberating women from being serial breeding machines and allowing them autonomy.
One nice side effect of BC is that women can now have careers. Too many kids would mess that up.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Where the sun always shines
1,866 posts, read 2,415,662 times
Reputation: 3376
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
Indeed.

One thought that does come to mind is that even though we no longer birth babies in order to have kids to look out for us when we are no longer able to care for ourselves, those who do not have children depend on the rest of us to do so.

For years, my job involved doing county "welfare checks" on elderly people that neighbors, mail carriers, etc. reported as needing assistance.

Even in the most dysfunctional of families, those who'd raised children could generally rally enough support to come up with some sort of plan. Often, the kids had no idea how far downhill things had gone but when notified, stepped up to the plate. Living arrangements were made, kids split up taking them to long delayed medical appts., etc.

Those with no children usually tried to enlist the aid of disinterested nieces and such. It was just sad. Often they ended up living in less than ideal situations, with medical care dependent on the whether the every changing, low-paid staff were motivated enough to follow through or even notice things in the first place.

With people living longer due to better medical care and rates of of dementia in the elderly going up, the situation for people who do not have children to look out for them looks grim.
And those who have kids live forever

Did you ever stop and think...just for one solitary second......that having children, and multiple ones at that, actually takes years off of your life

I have so many friends in their mid thirties early forties that just look terrible, either becuz they worry all the time ,money is so tight, they can't afford to eat well (fattening food tends to be cheaper), or they claim they have no time to get the gym, and other than the children, they barely get to actually "LIVE"..

Having kids to have someone to take of you later is always one of the most ridiculous arguments I can hear. "Hmmm, let me raise a child and have 20-25 years of caring so that they can take of me during my final 10" Think about how that sounds

Everything aint as peachy as the Cosby Show. And even they had issues of too many Mofo's living under one roof
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