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But how do we take him to bed if he starts fighting us and screaming and kicking out? Short of tying him to the bed, there's no way to get him in there and keep him there against his will. The trick seems to be (like in many other situations we have with him) to talk him into going willingly, with a punishment or reward if need be. He just doesn't respond at all to physical force; it only works him up and makes things worse.
I'm sure I'll get slammed for this, but how did he react when your husband spanked him? Did he stop coming out of the room? I'm wondering if a reminder he is NOT to come out of his room and quick pop on the butt the first time he disobeys (not the 4th--that's only teaching him to keep escalating) would nip it in the bud.
Usually it's great if you can you use other methods than spanking, but you guys have really tried hard with reasoning with him, and it sounds like just taking him to bed, he still disobeys you. I'm just wondering if showing him he will get spanked--and the first time--he comes out of his room would nip this in the bud without dragging it out too much and making it harder on everyone (including him.)
I agree with you that talking him into it may work best in other situations, but it doesn't seem like that's working here and if attention from mommy and daddy instead of going to sleep is what he wants, he's getting that 100% by you rewarding him with talking and him not having to go to sleep. You think you're reasoning with him. In his eyes, he's getting exactly what he wanted by throwing a fit--he doesn't have to go to sleep and he gets his parents' attention. If you want to change this, you have to stop that.
My 3,5 year old used to be fairly good with going to bed for the most part; last couple of months however he's been getting worse and worse. We haven't changed our bedtime routine, but now once he's in bed he's started getting up and popping back out - I need to go potty (when he just went), mommy cover me, I need a drink, or starts asking questions like 'how do I sleep?' and screams 'noooo not like that!' to anything we say. Before I leave every time I'll tell him not to come back out or that we want to do X in the morning and we won't be able to if he doesn't sleep, but none of it works, he'll listen and promise not to come out and then does it again. When we try talking to him nicely it'll keep going to where he's doing this 5-6 times a night. It's only after we raise our voice a couple of times and forcefully put him back into bed that he finally stops. I hate doing that though because he ends up crying and we only feel bad. But it seems like being nice isn't working either. I look forward to his bedtime because I'm tired myself at that point and I end up snapping; last night DH actually gave him a spanking on the fourth time, after warning him that he'll get it if he comes back out. He went to sleep after that but I hate it, it doesn't seem like a good way to handle things. I'm not sure what other discipline methods to use to keep him in bed. Things that work for daytime like timeouts aren't suitable here. I want to make it a firm boundary but without getting him all worked up because that's just counterproductive when I want him to calm down and go to sleep; yet it seems any method we try either doesn't work or it makes him hysterical which can't be good right before sleep. Help???
Wind down his day earlier with light dinner (no sugary foods and other stimulating things), no games or tv, but maybe put on Debussy or Ravel--music that is very soothing--and read a story to him earlier in bed. You didn't mention that. He may be experiencing nightmares or just common fears of the dark--maybe it's common at his age now that he is getting older and his imagination is growing. Be there for him while he's drifting off but make sure after a certain hour you are winding down his day. What is his bed time, by the way? I would push it back actually. You can start getting him ready for bed earlier so that you can remain in his room with him longer.
But how do we take him to bed if he starts fighting us and screaming andkicking out? Short of tying him to the bed, there's no way to get him in there and keep him there against his will. The trick seems to be (like in many other situations we have with him) to talk him into going willingly, with a punishment or reward if need be. He just doesn't respond at all to physical force; it only works him up and makes things worse.
Surely a 130 pound mom or 180 pound dad (fill in appropriate weights) are able to pick up and quietly carry a 30 or 35 pound 3 1/2 year old back to bed (even if they are screaming and kicking, which, BTW, most children would not be doing in that situation).
Now the first night it may take five or six times or ten times but if you follow though the next night it will be fewer times and the third night even fewer times.
Heck, I was an out-of-shape, close to 60 year old woman with rheumatoid arthritis and I could still pick up and carry a kicking, screaming, fighting, spitting and biting 5 year old child up of 45 pounds, from an unsafe situation, playground, to the bus, etc. Not that I always wanted to do that but I could do it when I had to do it to on my job as an early childhood special education teacher. Luckily, I didn't need to do it very often.
Keep in mind the other suggestions from other posters, such as decreasing nap time, earlier/quieter/more relaxing bed time, quiet music, more physical activities during the day (much earlier) to wear him out.
good luck.
Last edited by germaine2626; 08-04-2013 at 07:29 PM..
He is probably doing this for the attention and it's working.
Explain what will happen during the day before you start this routine, but...
Say once: "Do not come out again. Please stay in your bed."
Return him to bed. Don't talk, make eye contact or reprimand him.
Do this every time he gets out of bed.
You will need to be patient, but he will get this. Don't try this if you will get upset returning him to bed. You need to stay calm and patient.
Yes. This works very well but it can take awhile, on the order of a few days to a week or two. We used this technique for a similar phase and it went away quickly. Phases like this are really, really common, even in kids who have generally slept well. It might be about attention, it might be about a desire for control, or it could be anxiety.
Some kids respond well to sticker charts. (The Kazdin Method book is a very good one, despite the dramatic title.) You can do "bedtime practice" a couple times during the day -- have him physically get in bed and you leave the room for a few minutes (start with a minute or two, then work your way up to five minutes or more) to reinforce the positive behavior you want to replace the tantrums with -- lying down quietly in his bed after you leave the room.
ugh, so today he came up with a clever scheme: everything was great, we did the story and goodnight kiss, tucked him in, he asked that i cover him up (usually he doesn't like it) and then decided he wants to shut the bedroom door himself. Of course that meant he kicked off the covers and then wanted me to cover him back up, and repeat I told him once firmly that he can't do that and that the rule will be that I shut the door because I don't want him getting out of bed. Of course he started jumping up and I tried putting him back in but he refused to stay there so I had to pretty much hold him down in the bed which of course got him struggling to wriggle free and wailing and getting hysterical. So I tried leaving him there and walked out, shut the door and held it shut. He screamed for about fifteen minutes for me to come back, when I finally he did he started screaming again that he wants to shut the door, just today, just one time, at that point he was hysterical and shaky and gasping for breath. I knelt down and told him very sternly and slowly that he only has one more choice - either I cover him with the blanket and shut the door or he can shut the door just this once but then he has to get into bed and I can't cover him up. He got into bed, I covered him up and warned him to not get up again and walked out. So far so good. But all in all it amounted to like half an hour of hysterical crying and he went to bed still sniffling, and ugh, I just hate it and it can't be good for him to be getting all worked up like that before sleep. I just don't know what to do; I try to handle it nicely and talk about it ahead of time and he seems to listen and understand and then it's like a switch goes off.
The other thing with him and his meltdowns, and this is not limited to sleep, is he tends to get extremely fixated on something, moreso if he's tired, hungry, cranky etc, and it can be the smallest silliest thing but he'll just get worked up over it and keep repeating the same thing over and over again and absolutely nothing can distract him or get through. It's like he can't get his mind off the one thing when in meltdown mode. At the same time, I can't give in if I've already said no to it. I'm actually thinking that maybe I should get him checked out for some kind of OCD-type disorder? I don't know. He also has ocd-like tendencies in other things and is a perfectionist and extremely bright, like I've mentioned. Sigh, I just hate these power struggles because even if I 'win' it doesn't feel good, he's usually in tears and it makes me feel rotten.
He is probably doing this for the attention and it's working.
Explain what will happen during the day before you start this routine, but...
Say once: "Do not come out again. Please stay in your bed."
Return him to bed. Don't talk, make eye contact or reprimand him.
Do this every time he gets out of bed.
You will need to be patient, but he will get this. Don't try this if you will get upset returning him to bed. You need to stay calm and patient.
^^This works. It takes time, is inconvenient for a little while, but it works. I've done this and have seen this done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie
ugh, so today he came up with a clever scheme: everything was great, we did the story and goodnight kiss, tucked him in, he asked that i cover him up (usually he doesn't like it) and then decided he wants to shut the bedroom door himself. Of course that meant he kicked off the covers and then wanted me to cover him back up, and repeat I told him once firmly that he can't do that and that the rule will be that I shut the door because I don't want him getting out of bed. Of course he started jumping up and I tried putting him back in but he refused to stay there so I had to pretty much hold him down in the bed which of course got him struggling to wriggle free and wailing and getting hysterical. So I tried leaving him there and walked out, shut the door and held it shut. He screamed for about fifteen minutes for me to come back, when I finally he did he started screaming again that he wants to shut the door, just today, just one time, at that point he was hysterical and shaky and gasping for breath. I knelt down and told him very sternly and slowly that he only has one more choice - either I cover him with the blanket and shut the door or he can shut the door just this once but then he has to get into bed and I can't cover him up. He got into bed, I covered him up and warned him to not get up again and walked out. So far so good. But all in all it amounted to like half an hour of hysterical crying and he went to bed still sniffling, and ugh, I just hate it and it can't be good for him to be getting all worked up like that before sleep. I just don't know what to do; I try to handle it nicely and talk about it ahead of time and he seems to listen and understand and then it's like a switch goes off.
His tantrums will come to an end if you are consistent with Nana's approach. He will learn to stay in bed and fall asleep. However, it won't happen overnight because he has been used to getting attention by acting out as you've described.
If a parent doesn't have control over a child when he is 3 years old they are going to have a hell of a time when he gets to be 16 ! Discipline starts when the child is VERY young and is consistent throughout their youth.
I mentioned on another thread on a similar subject that when my two Sons were young they knew I only spoke once and meant what I said. If they continued to act up they got a swat on the butt and that usually got the job done. I realize that sort of "abuse" is now considered not PC, but that is why we have so many kids today that no one wants to be around.
I was in line at a grocery store one time and a rather large lady in front of me had 3 kids who were really acting badly............pulling items off the shelves, hitting each other, yelling really loud, etc. She turned to me and said "I can't do anything with them !" I couldn't hold back and said "Well, you outweigh them 10 to 1, what is the problem ?" I don't think she cared for that comment, but she got the point.
Kids will only be as bad as you allow them to be, period.
Can you let him just play in his room until he's sleepy enough to sleep? Just stick a safety gate in his doorway so he can't get out and leave him to it.
Disobedience needs conciquences .
if you dont have the dicipline to ba a parent he will rule you.
It's not like the parents are the police or the government...Most don't want their kids going wild - no so much that they can't tolerate them - They think more about the embarrassment the child might cause them in public. Dogs if you do not keep control over them will dominate you- Children are another matter. If a child wants some reasonable authority - let them have a bit so they don't grow up to be a submissive kiss ass...as an adult. Then again I was not so much the dominating dad...I was more like the older sibling...My eldest adult daughter commented recently " Dad you never taught us any life skills- all you did was play with us"
YES - I was for the most part just one of the kids and it was the mother who kept some order in the home...If I was out in the back sipping some gin - the kids would come out and know that - Dad would let them drive the car around the field...and I let them -I would make zip lines...tree forts...and some days my wife would come home to find the whole family perched on the peek of the roof like birds...My kids were pretty free do do what they wanted because I was like a big kid- I look at the old videos and I did not have a clue how to be a stern father.
I kept the kids occupied doing things that I LIKED...There were pianos - drums and guitars in the house...I started them off with pots and pans and we would have a family jam session...No we were not a hippy family..All I did was protect them- instill basic ethics...and the spirit of freedom...They are all great adults who are independent thinkers and contributors to society...I never broke or weakened their spirits by hitting them- Why would I spank someone I loved?
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I told him once firmly that he can't do that and that the rule will be that I shut the door because I don't want him getting out of bed. Of course he started jumping up and I tried putting him back in but he refused to stay there so I had to pretty much hold him down in the bed which of course got him struggling to wriggle free and wailing and getting hysterical. So I tried leaving him there and walked out, shut the door and held it shut. He screamed for about fifteen minutes for me to come back, when I finally he did he started screaming again that he wants to shut the door, just today, just one time, at that point he was hysterical and shaky and gasping for breath. I knelt down and told him very sternly and slowly that he only has one more choice - either I cover him with the blanket and shut the door or he can shut the door just this once but then he has to get into bed and I can't cover him up. He got into bed, I covered him up and warned him to not get up again and walked out. So far so good. But all in all it amounted to like half an hour of hysterical crying and he went to bed still sniffling, and ugh, I just hate it and it can't be good for him to be getting all worked up like that before sleep. I just don't know what to do; I try to handle it nicely and talk about it ahead of time and he seems to listen and understand and then it's like a switch goes off. 
Discipline starts when the child is VERY young and is consistent throughout their youth. 
