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I don't think she's consciously going like you are accusing her of doing. I'm just tossing this out as an alternative that hasn't been discussed. Perhaps her brain doesn't get the signals of the sensation of needing to go. Maybe she truly doesn't realize it until after it happened. This happened to my niece after a car accident. Her brain needed to relearn certain things as basic as this. While your daughter didn't have a traumatic injury, she may still benefit from the treatment called biofeedback therapy.
I think you have two problems going on here. They say when young children have difficulty potty training it's because it's the one thing in their lives they can control. Even though she's older, that might apply. Someone else mentioned negative attention earlier in the thread.
As for her saying going to the bathroom is boring, has it occurred to you to go into the bathroom with her and read a book while she's sitting on the toilet during those scheduled times she is to sit there after breakfast and dinner?
I haven't accused her directly, only between her mother and I. (and those I've talked to it about)
I was thinking of something about the biofeedback therapy you're talking about. We haven't actually tried that. Though the fact that she does sometimes use the restroom correctly when she wants to, mostly when she's lost playtime, shows or whatever.
I've also thought about it being a control issue too. I don't really show emotion about it, though her Mom does sometimes. I've asked her to just act like it's no big deal and just have her clean it up, which is what I do. She could be doing it for the reaction, I don't know. She is very defiant though and it seems that she is always struggling for control. Not doing what she's asked to do to the point that she's lost toys/shows, etc.
Usually the "boring" thing comes when we ask her to go finish and clean herself up after she's already done it. Though we don't always, we have hung out there while she goes and kept her company. Another thing I could mention is that she's really lazy. (again, due to being spoiled by her grandparents while living there) And just about anything that doesn't involve playing is "boring", including school work, cleaning her room, going #2 and other things. Though that doesn't get her out of doing it, it's usually hours before she actually does it. For example, last Sunday, she had some homework that she put off all weekend and it had to be done, so we told her to get it done and if she needs help, come ask and we'll be glad to help, but we're not doing it for her. She wanted to watch Smurfs 2. We said that we'll watch it once she's done with all her work. She refused pretty much all day long in an incredible display of defiance, so she didn't get to play. We were all sorts of mean, rude and she hated living here and so forth. Finally about 7:30 or so, an hour before her bedtime, she finally broke down and did the school work (which took 15 minutes). She wasn't too happy that we wouldn't let her watch it, even though we told her it was too late to watch (after about 6:00 because she asked constantly) and that if she would have just done the homework when we first asked, she would have been able to watch.
I suppose that's a good explanation of why I think she just goes in her pants because she's too busy playing.
I do appreciate your responses. Thank you. I'm not just sold on encopresis. Sure, it seems there are a couple things in common, but knowing her and a lot of the things about encopresis just doesn't add up to the situation (like no compaction issues/discomforts, the fact that she can go #2 in the toilet when she wants to, etc). That and no one has diagnosed that out of all of our visits, even a Children's Hospital that is one of the best in the nation and deals with that sort of thing on a regular basis. Like I said though, I'll mention it the next time and see what they say.
Last edited by lovesthebass; 01-19-2014 at 01:57 AM..
The humiliating threats are stuff like telling her you will put her back in diapers like a baby.
Look, I understand you get frustrated, but you can't say that ^^^. You're making the situation WORSE.
As for the butt-whoopin's, I KNOW you said you haven't done that. But in my experience, with the current level of your frustration, add a stressor (i.e. baby), and the butt-whoopins will soon follow. The way you threw around that word in your other posts made it sounds like you're just waiting for the chance.
You need to read Hopes' link, and you need family counseling.
Last edited by BirdieBelle; 01-19-2014 at 06:57 AM..
I don't have any experience with a situation like this, but just wanted to say OP is in a very difficult situation. We're not talking about a baby/toddler pooping in their diapers. This is a 7 year old child, and a defiant one at that. It's got to be extremely unpleasant having to deal with that. Controlling someone else's bowel movements is pretty near impossible unless you resort to enemas or heavy duty laxatives. I would be at my wits end, and OP and his wife have my sympathy. Hope the problem gets resolved for everyone's sake.
If her objection to the bathroom is that it's boring, make the bathroom not boring.
I mean, sometimes when the kid is convinced there's a monster in the closet and no amount of logic will reason them out of it, you just have to pretend to wail the monster into oblivion with a baseball bat. Kid brains aren't always sensible, and you can either bang your head against the wall waiting for their frontal lobes to finish growing in, or you can bend a bit and go with the shortcut solution.
My two cents. Take the advice of the posters who tell you to find out if there is a medical problem. If not, step out of the conflict all together. Leave her completely alone on this issue. Think about what a natural reaction you would have to someone ELSE having poop in their pants. They smell bad. I would not want to hang out with someone who smelled bad. I would simply say, I cannot be near you right now with that smell. Let me know when you are cleaned up. If she does a poor job cleaning up, still smells, rinse and repeat.
My two cents. Take the advice of the posters who tell you to find out if there is a medical problem. If not, step out of the conflict all together. Leave her completely alone on this issue. Think about what a natural reaction you would have to someone ELSE having poop in their pants. They smell bad. I would not want to hang out with someone who smelled bad. I would simply say, I cannot be near you right now with that smell. Let me know when you are cleaned up. If she does a poor job cleaning up, still smells, rinse and repeat.
While I agree that's probably what's going to happen as there hasn't been any diagnosed medical issue behind it, I just wish we could figure this thing out before she becomes the "poopy pants" girl at school. You know? We're trying to save her the humiliation.
We do ask her to clean herself up and she does. You would think that eventually she'd get tired of cleaning her own stool. I've even stated on multiple accounts that it takes longer to clean herself up after the fact than it is to just go use the toilet when she needs to.
She used the toilet this morning, just as normal. My wife was like, "Tell Daddy what you did this morning in the shower." - "I pooped." - I praise her for it and ask her if her body tells her when she needs to go and she replied, "Yeah."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmsn4Life
The humiliating threats are stuff like telling her you will put her back in diapers like a baby.
Look, I understand you get frustrated, but you can't say that ^^^. You're making the situation WORSE.
As for the butt-whoopin's, I KNOW you said you haven't done that. But in my experience, with the current level of your frustration, add a stressor (i.e. baby), and the butt-whoopins will soon follow. The way you threw around that word in your other posts made it sounds like you're just waiting for the chance.
You need to read Hopes' link, and you need family counseling.
I didn't say it like that. I said, "If you don't learn how to listen to your body and making messes in your nice underwear, we might have to go back to diapers."
Again, you're insinuating things about me when you have no idea. I am extremely slow to anger and usually keep calm unless the situation presents itself where I need to end things quickly. Believe me, if I were "waiting for the chance" to spank, I would have long ago when her attitude was ten times worse.
I read Hopes' link completely through and I'm telling you that it's not encophesis. It sounds like it, but none of the reasoning behind it adds up. Besides that, you would think after multiple visits to the pediatrician and specialists at Cincinnati Children's, they would have diagnosed this already.
If her objection to the bathroom is that it's boring, make the bathroom not boring.
I mean, sometimes when the kid is convinced there's a monster in the closet and no amount of logic will reason them out of it, you just have to pretend to wail the monster into oblivion with a baseball bat. Kid brains aren't always sensible, and you can either bang your head against the wall waiting for their frontal lobes to finish growing in, or you can bend a bit and go with the shortcut solution.
I would suggest doing the opposite. Rewarding her for pooping in the toilet has apparently not worked.
Perhaps what you need to do is make it more boring to not use the toilet.
First, touch base with the doctor again to make sure that she has not developed encopresis. If every thing is still fine, tell her the doctor has decided that the reason she poops in her pants is that she is too tired and she needs more rest. In order to get more rest, she will have to go to bed immediately after dinner. She will have to finish her homework before supper.
Remove anything from her bedroom that will be a distraction. Every toy and electronic gizmo comes out. Tell her that for right now, her bedroom is only for sleeping, until she is rested enough to not poop in her pants.
Since going on family outings would make her too tired, the doctor says she cannot do that. If she's invited to a birthday party, so sorry but the doctor says it would not be good for her to participate in such activities until her body is rested and she no longer poops in her pants. She will still have to go to school, but she must rest at home so she will be able to do that. On weekends, she must rest, too.
What this does is remove the parents as a source of punishment. It's an authority, the doctor, who has come up with a treatment plan. Her parents are not being mean; they are not being the bad guys. It also guarantees that she is going to really be "bored" for a while. She will test your fortitude. Do not get angry. If she leaves her room after dinner, calmly escort her back and remind her the doctor has ordered bed rest for her, just as she would order medicine if she had a sore throat.
Set a time limit during which she must always use the toilet, after which she will start being allowed to gradually get her toys back and stay up longer --- say seven days. Any "accidents" reset the seven day clock. Be prepared for things to get worse before they get better. Tell her the doctor explained that would happen, it means she is still not getting enough rest and it appears that this is going to take a long time to treat. So sorry, but back to bed you go.
If she toilets properly for a full seven days, allow her some recreational time after supper and delay bed for a short period. Continue until she is back on a normal 7 year old schedule. Any "accidents" and the whole thing starts all over.
If you do this, give her doctor a heads up so she will know that she was the source of the improvement!
Disclaimer: this method is advocated by a psychologist who writes an advice column and whose name I cannot remember right now. He uses it for temper tantrum meltdowns.
It usually works very quickly!
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew
My two cents. Take the advice of the posters who tell you to find out if there is a medical problem. If not, step out of the conflict all together. Leave her completely alone on this issue. Think about what a natural reaction you would have to someone ELSE having poop in their pants. They smell bad. I would not want to hang out with someone who smelled bad. I would simply say, I cannot be near you right now with that smell. Let me know when you are cleaned up. If she does a poor job cleaning up, still smells, rinse and repeat.
I agree with the comment about telling her no one wants to be around a person who smells like poop, just the way you have described. However, I do believe behavior modification will help resolve the issue.
I would suggest doing the opposite. Rewarding her for pooping in the toilet has apparently not worked.
Perhaps what you need to do is make it more boring to not use the toilet.
First, touch base with the doctor again to make sure that she has not developed encopresis. If every thing is still fine, tell her the doctor has decided that the reason she poops in her pants is that she is too tired and she needs more rest. In order to get more rest, she will have to go to bed immediately after dinner. She will have to finish her homework before supper.
Remove anything from her bedroom that will be a distraction. Every toy and electronic gizmo comes out. Tell her that for right now, her bedroom is only for sleeping, until she is rested enough to not poop in her pants.
Since going on family outings would make her too tired, the doctor says she cannot do that. If she's invited to a birthday party, so sorry but the doctor says it would not be good for her to participate in such activities until her body is rested and she no longer poops in her pants. She will still have to go to school, but she must rest at home so she will be able to do that. On weekends, she must rest, too.
What this does is remove the parents as a source of punishment. It's an authority, the doctor, who has come up with a treatment plan. Her parents are not being mean; they are not being the bad guys. It also guarantees that she is going to really be "bored" for a while. She will test your fortitude. Do not get angry. If she leaves her room after dinner, calmly escort her back and remind her the doctor has ordered bed rest for her, just as she would order medicine if she had a sore throat.
Set a time limit during which she must always use the toilet, after which she will start being allowed to gradually get her toys back and stay up longer --- say seven days. Any "accidents" reset the seven day clock. Be prepared for things to get worse before they get better. Tell her the doctor explained that would happen, it means she is still not getting enough rest and it appears that this is going to take a long time to treat. So sorry, but back to bed you go.
If she toilets properly for a full seven days, allow her some recreational time after supper and delay bed for a short period. Continue until she is back on a normal 7 year old schedule. Any "accidents" and the whole thing starts all over.
If you do this, give her doctor a heads up so she will know that she was the source of the improvement!
Disclaimer: this method is advocated by a psychologist who writes an advice column and whose name I cannot remember right now. He uses it for temper tantrum meltdowns.
It usually works very quickly!
This is brilliant! I was trying to think of a way for her to be bored (when I recommended making the toilet more fun via reading), but couldn't think of a way that wouldn't be viewed as a punishment. This is similar to how I would tell my children they "sounded tired" when they would get whiny. It makes the boredom not a punishment but a true natural consequence. Saying the doctor say's she's too tired too poop because she's having too much fun takes the battle with the parents away. It will take time because she will challenge and test them, but if they stick with the calm "you're tired" stuff, I'll be it won't be long before she is jumping to poop in the toilet to show she's not tired so she can have fun.
This is brilliant! I was trying to think of a way for her to be bored (when I recommended making the toilet more fun via reading), but couldn't think of a way that wouldn't be viewed as a punishment. This is similar to how I would tell my children they "sounded tired" when they would get whiny. It makes the boredom not a punishment but a true natural consequence. Saying the doctor say's she's too tired too poop because she's having too much fun takes the battle with the parents away. It will take time because she will challenge and test them, but if they stick with the calm "you're tired" stuff, I'll be it won't be long before she is jumping to poop in the toilet to show she's not tired so she can have fun.
I don't think I would tell her she is too tired because she is having too much fun. Just a plain "too tired" is enough.
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