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Old 12-17-2007, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Chicago
2,467 posts, read 11,128,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twowolves View Post
Do I leave a voice mail for him? Only to be unanswered? What do I say?

Any examples of a sentence or two-which is all thats necessary to ask him what he's planning on doing for Christmas?

I want it to be matter of fact but also loving.....if his answer is NO, then he won't be hearing from me for quite awhile.

In the meantime, I have NOT seen/talked to him since his last wrestling match last Wednesday-where I actually was there in attendance with my husband and kids.....I don't plan on communicating at all with him until like next Sat or so, which is when I plan on somehow asking him about Christmas......I want some time to go by to make him 'wonder' a bit.

I don't plan on giving him his gifts until he can come here and open them in our presence. That is the least he could do.

I am tired of being his doormat. And mad at myself for allowing it. I have more self-esteem that this!!!! I really do!!!

I need some real examples of some ways to put the 'message' re:Christmas.

Good for you wolves! You should stand up for yourself! It will take time, but he will come around eventually. You can either 1) leave him a voicemail saying "I went Christmas shopping today and picked up a few things for you. If you would like to spend time with your family and get your presents, please feel free to stop by at ____ time (or call me and I will pick you up at __ time). I hope you choose to join us, but remember, we would expect you to follow the house rules. If you don't want to come or are not yet ready to follow these rules, give me a call when you feel like you want to work on our relationship. I love you." or 2) send him a card or letter saying something to the same effect (could even be a Christmas card or invitation). Be loving, but firm! You want to be consistently firm, but leave the "door open" so to speak so that he knows he can come back at any time. If he shows you disrespect at any time, firmly remind him of the rules and that if he would like to visit, etc you expect him to follow them. I think it's nice you went to his wrestling match. I would continue to support him at important events, but again, stick to the firm (i.e., you still need to follow our rules and I'm not apologizing) but loving (i.e., I'm supporting you and love you, so you can come back when you are ready!)
Good luck and hang in there.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
919 posts, read 2,860,231 times
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We allow what is familiar to us, over long periods of time...we get set in a way of relatiing to people from birth and its very subtel at times...very much so...but it can and does hurt people in ways they may not even be aware of...kudos to you for leaving him when your son was 18mo...good for you and you were so young too, many women I know who are odler and know better allow themselves to be abused by their man and then later their children...good for you!
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:30 AM
 
2,222 posts, read 9,153,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessiegirl_98 View Post
If you would like to spend time with your family, please feel free to stop by at ____ time (or call me and I will pick you up at __ time). I hope you choose to join us, but remember, we would expect you to follow the house rules. If you don't want to come or are not yet ready to follow these rules, give me a call when you feel like you want to work on our relationship. I love you."
I like this part of Jessiegirl's post above for a voicemail.

Twowolves, remember this: You are not only trying to show your son how he should treat you, but others as well. His behavior would not be acceptable in situations such as social, employment, family or marriage. His age and bio father may have something to do with this, but he still must learn he can not treat others with disrespect. He must learn to acknowledge a problem and work toward a resolution, not lash out in anger. If he is unwilling to disclose or work on any problems at this time, he still must learn you will not tolerate his behavior toward you, your family, or in your home. Teenagers are smart and can be very manipulative of their parents at this age. He is pushing your buttons. You must use your head, not your heart at this time.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:03 AM
 
1,363 posts, read 5,346,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beth56 View Post
I like this part of Jessiegirl's post above for a voicemail.

Twowolves, remember this: You are not only trying to show your son how he should treat you, but others as well. His behavior would not be acceptable in situations such as social, employment, family or marriage. His age and bio father may have something to do with this, but he still must learn he can not treat others with disrespect. He must learn to acknowledge a problem and work toward a resolution, not lash out in anger. If he is unwilling to disclose or work on any problems at this time, he still must learn you will not tolerate his behavior toward you, your family, or in your home. Teenagers are smart and can be very manipulative of their parents at this age. He is pushing your buttons. You must use your head, not your heart at this time.
I totally agree with this. I don't have a teenager so I can't give you advice, but I can give you a glimpse of a possible future if it's not nipped in the bud. My brother-in-law was a lot like your son at that age (he's 35 now) and my in-laws did NOTHING to get him to be respectful or have a healthy outlet for whatever his anger was about. He ran the show. Fast forward to today, he is an a$$hole who takes and takes and takes everything that he can from his parents, still is beyond disrespectful, punched out the glass in the front door when they wouldn't let him in (their attempt at standing up to him), and the list goes on and on. He could care less about his parents or the rest of his family for that matter, told his mom he wished she would just die, but has no problem taking their bail money or letting them practically raise his daughter. And what do they do? Blame it on a thyroid condition and mitral valve prolapse There's always an excuse for his behaviour and they never made or make him accountable for ANYTHING.

I hope you find a solution for you and your son. Best wishes.
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Old 12-23-2007, 08:48 AM
 
1,472 posts, read 2,234,229 times
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Default update...

Well, since my mom is leaving today for Christmas w/my sister, I had her for dinner on Thursday. She wanted to see my son and to give him his gift. I typed up a quick note just saying the same...and delivered it to the grandma's mailbox-I addressed it to the paternal grandma and my son. That was last Monday.

On Thursday, the paternal grandma left me a VM saying that she and son had discussed it and that I would have to speak w/him about his decision...and that she was on her way out of town for the weekend. So, I called him that evening as we were getting ready to eat but when I got his VM, I just hung up. Immediately he called my house back. He said he wouldn't come here and so I suggested that on my way to take my mom back home after dinner/gifts here, I would pick him up and we could go to my mom's for a bit. I figured at this point, it wasn't about getting him to give in and come here-it was about Christmas and him spending some time w/his nana who is old and NOT healthy.....plus, she adores him and really wanted to see him I could tell.

Here is a copy and paste of an email that I rec'd on Friday from son's guidance counselor, she had just met with him for the last time before Christmas break:

Had a great talk with (my son) today. We spoke about respect and how he only has one mom……so it would be nice if he treated her with kindness. He agreed. He said he spoke to you last night and you drove him to his grandmothers. It looks like things are going to get better.
I think he feels comfortable talking with me; I think he found someone he (kind of trusts), which is great!
How did it go last night?


And here was my response to her:


It went well I guess. The night began when we were just getting ready to eat dinner and I went into my room to try and call him...I got his VM and hung up. Within 30seconds, just as I sat back down, the phone rang and it was him. I proposed the alternate plan, down below and we spoke for a few minutes about him coming here and why he wouldn't. (son) brought up my husband.... and that awful NIGHT 2 months ago. I told (son) that my husband let out pent up stuff for the past 11yrs and that he had been watching (son) for the past/prior month be so mean and rude and disrespectfult to me and that it hurt my husband to watch it....and that he loves both of us. Then he said...... "a lot of the times when I was mean to you, it was deliberate..." !!!! He admitted it!

He would not come here so I suggested I pick him up on my way to take my mom back to her house after dinner here. He agreed. All in all, it was a nice time at my mom's. She is old and loves (son). She actually adores him...and I think he....her. I suggested this alternate plan because it wasn't so much about him coming 'here', (although I'd love that) it was about Christmas and him spending important time with his nana. I felt like I needed to put everything aside-and make that happen.

He was nice to me. BUT, he is still really hanging onto his anger at my husband for that night. I don't know if it's real bonified anger....or more manipulation now. I have to say this, I married my husband because #1-he was a sweetheart from day 1 and #2 he was awesome with my then 4yr old son...who was my priority...over ANY man. If those 2 things weren't true, I would have never married him. I always put (son) at the top of my priority list. I dated 2 men prior to my husband and they weren't good enough for my son.....so onward I moved and then met my husband.

For some reason, right now, (son) is lashing out against my husband. In defense of my husband (which I don't think I have done enough of, poor guy) he has been a 'wonderful' mentor, role model and stepdad to (son), for the past 11yrs. I can't even name the many, many times that my husband stuck up for (son) when I would be maybe too punitive or strict or micro-managing.

(son) did say hurtful things last night in regard to my husband like when I mentioned him coming and being with us and his brothers for Christmas he said....'they're my 1/2 brothers, half from you but also half from HIM'.......he followed that with 'I love them because of YOUR part of them....' And then he said 'besides they won't even remember me being there for Christmas....'He also said 'yeah he (his stepdad) was nice to me and spent time and played video games with me but I don't ever want to go back into that house.......for what he said that night.....' and then he referred to my husband calling him 'spoiled'. Oh and he said this!!......'at that (our) house there's him-a 100% d*ck, you-a 50% d*ck, and here at my grandmas, I have my dad who just leaves me alone.' !!!!! AHHHH!!!!!

My mom loves him but doesn't love his current treatment of my husband. She's actually mad at me a bit because up until now, I have not defended my husband at all......and continued to put (son) first.

My mom says I can't accept (son) speaking of his stepdad anymore like that...and that I need to squash it immediately everytime it happens.

I told him last night many things like:

'you need to let the anger go...it's your choice, it's anyone's choice to either stay angry or move on...'
'what you're doing is not accomplishing anything....'
'it's not your place to be so judgemental of (stepdad) or anybody for that matter, no one is perfect'
'so are you telling me that if you're unwilling to move on and forgive your anger at (stepdad), then should I not move on and forgive all the mean things that you have said to me recently?' ( I was trying to make a point here)
'you can't pick and choose the people you will judge and not forgive and then forgive others for the same things....don't you remember when last year you and your DAD were on our front lawn that night and were ready to get into a physical fight??? you have forgiven him right?' (this was the end basically of my email....)

Ok guys. I hate posting this about son but you have to know the latest details. I really am so disappointed in him....and after hearing some of the stuff above-am mostly disgusted. And turned off to his behavior right now. When you read the above, it sounds like my son is a monster. The above stuff is not really my son, atleast prior to this last year, it wasn't.

I firmly believe, now more than ever, and with my mom's pointing it out (and many others) that his father is/has poisoned him. He NEVER before distinguished his little brothers as his HALF brothers....I am not even sure that he knew the term. Did his father place that in his head? And, what about calling his stepdad a d*ck?! Awful. And unacceptable.

I am saddened but more so lately angered, especially after hearing him say this stuff the other night. It kind of gives me a bit more perspective of where he is 'at' right now in his head.

My mom's assessment of my son's interactions/behavior with ME, was good and seemed back to normal. She said she expected much different, like distance or animosity or anger....but, he was actually his normal self with/toward me. He even posed in a picture with me and his head was right up against mine, his arm around me sort of and a nice smile. It wasn't a fake or uncomfortable smile either.

Before he went back into his paternal grandmas house that night, I asked him what his plan is for spending any Christmas time at our house. And how would he let me know? I also told him that his uncle, aunt and cousin (home from college) will be in town on the day after Christmas and that they mentioned seeing him. I put it in his court and asked him how and by when he would let me know 'his' plan if any....he finally said 'I will call you the day before Christmas.'

So, you know what? No call from him? No call from me. I will let Christmas come and go and no matter what, will not dial his phone. I am fed up and now have to defend my husband and most of all to show my son that his behavior and judgement of others is NOT proper....and will not be accepted by me anymore. He's carrying this on too far.

And if it's his dad that is feeding him cr*p about his stepdad and trying to turn him, then he needs to see the light. The words he said the other night about his stepdad are/were VERY abnormal for him to say about my husband. He has ALWAYS liked and respected my husband.

Does anyone have any interesting input or can shed some different light on the above?? Does it look like true manipulation or true anger? Or, something different? I would appreciate it.

All I know is, the boy that I am now seeing, is NOT the boy that I raised.
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:08 AM
 
Location: NJ
9,226 posts, read 20,248,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twowolves View Post
Does anyone have any interesting input or can shed some different light on the above?? Does it look like true manipulation or true anger? Or, something different? I would appreciate it.
All I know is, the boy that I am now seeing, is NOT the boy that I raised.
I still stand behind what I posted before.
Is it possible for you to answer some of those questions I had? It would be helpful.

Most important.. what I would do..
Tell him gifts are going to be at your moms house. Bring your two kids, heck, maybe ask your husband to stop by later in the day after he's warmed up a bit. Neutral ground is good.

You need to call the shots, not him. You are giving up and IMO I don't feel it's the right answer. He is not old enough to make this choice with the ex poisoning him.

One day your son is going to wake up and feel bad about all of this. At another forum I go to, someone posted that their online friend committed suicide. I would hate for your son to carry this then realize he screwed up. He may be mad later on that you didn't tell him what to do.. which is what it sounds like he needs, especially after you calling him to go to your moms house.
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:37 AM
 
1,472 posts, read 2,234,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
I still stand behind what I posted before.
Is it possible for you to answer some of those questions I had? It would be helpful.

Most important.. what I would do..
Tell him gifts are going to be at your moms house. Bring your two kids, heck, maybe ask your husband to stop by later in the day after he's warmed up a bit. Neutral ground is good.

You need to call the shots, not him. You are giving up and IMO I don't feel it's the right answer. He is not old enough to make this choice with the ex poisoning him.

One day your son is going to wake up and feel bad about all of this. At another forum I go to, someone posted that their online friend committed suicide. I would hate for your son to carry this then realize he screwed up. He may be mad later on that you didn't tell him what to do.. which is what it sounds like he needs, especially after you calling him to go to your moms house.
I don't know what questions that you are referring to....about custody? I don't think that is pertinent as my son has the choice to stay with his dad. Neither of us were given 'custody' per se as we were never married. That is irrelevant right now.

I have enough on my plate and really don't need to be reading about suicide. I am sorry but it's true.

As for going to my mother's, I said before that she was going away for Christmas. I don't have a key to her house if that's what you meant.
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:41 AM
 
1,472 posts, read 2,234,229 times
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Default Ok, I am confused again....

After Roselvr's last post, I am officially confused. She is erring more on the side of my prior reactions....more lenient. And I was just getting strong about it.

Others say tough love is needed here. How confusing.

Should I go offer to go to the paternal grandmas and give him his gifts there?

?
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:51 AM
 
2,222 posts, read 9,153,091 times
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Hi twowolves, first of all, let me say I think you are doing fantastic. The decision to go to grandma's was great. Everyone felt safe to speak, so that was wonderful, and grandma was able to see your son.

Now about your son... To me his attitude is typical of someone his age who is defiant and manipulating. He is acting like a spoiled brat who is not getting what he wants. His scapegoat is your husband, poor guy. I am so glad to hear you defend your husband as you are now. He stood up to your son for you and now it is time to stand by your husband. Your mother is right, bless her heart. Your son is acting like if he just continues on this route, he can force you to make a choice, your husband or your son. I don't think your son liked the reprimand from your husband as he defended you. So now he is lashing out. His comments about his siblings are aimed at your husband in my opinion, not truly at them. I wouldn't worry too much about that right now. He says he won't go back to your home because of all the things your husband said. What about all the things he has said, has he forgotten those? I would remind him of that. He is trying to move the emphasis onto your husbands deeds and off him. He needs to recognize what he has also done. If he can't do that, it will be very difficult to move forward. Let's put it in Dr. Phil's words, "you can fix what you don't acknowledge". I would work on getting him to admit his past behavior and ask how he could have handled it differently. This is also true for you and your husband.

I would go forward as you outlined for Christmas. You have invited him. If he doesn't come, no gifts. That is his choice, not yours. The ball is in his court.

If you think your ex is behind this mess, then I would speak to him. But I'm not sure he is. Teenagers can do this kind of stuff all on their own, believe me, been there.

I hope I have given some insight here. Stand by your man, dear, if you truly believe his heart is good. Your son is trying to divide you and acting spoiled at the moment. I hope you keep writing about this. I think about you all of the time and am hoping for a fabulous break-through at some point. But it may take time. Happy Holidays to you. Beth
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:02 AM
 
Location: NJ
9,226 posts, read 20,248,230 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twowolves View Post
I don't know what questions that you are referring to....about custody? I don't think that is pertinent as my son has the choice to stay with his dad. Neither of us were given 'custody' per se as we were never married. That is irrelevant right now.

I have enough on my plate and really don't need to be reading about suicide. I am sorry but it's true.

As for going to my mother's, I said before that she was going away for Christmas. I don't have a key to her house if that's what you meant.
I must have missed where you said about going away or forgotten by the time I came back to read the rest.. it was long, couldn't read it in one sitting as I didn't have time ...taking a break from gift wrapping..

Don't think I mentioned it.. I've been married 3 times.. I have a 14 year old too that also has a step father.. I know what you are going through. My daughter from what I can tell feels guilty at times that she loves my husband more then her father. I know what the guilt is by the Ex (I know you weren't married.. using Ex as it's easier to type)..

My Ex talks bad about us all of the time. I don't doubt yours is doing the same thing.. think of it this way.. your son is feeling confused.. he loves you, your DH and two kids.. yet this "guy & his mother" are telling him not to.. It's hard being a teen. I know my daughter struggles with things.

There have been times when I just can't take it any more and want to let her live with him but I know he is not the one to raise her with any values, and I don't doubt this is the case here.. you love him and are doing all you can to get through this.. but you have two other kids that also need you (I do not).

I asked about custody / child support because I wonder if this is a money thing.. your son said he can do what ever he wants over there. Wow, sign me up too! Is him running away from the arguement the answer? No. He needs to learn to face it.. life is tough, he can't keep running away from problems.

It isn't "normal" for him to not be over this by now.. this is why I feel the Ex is poisoning him.. probably filling his head. You both said you were sorry, it's done. Things you wrote that your mother said and that you said to him were really good.. hopefully it will work.

I know with my daughter that if I did let her leave to live with her father that she would feel abandoned by me and every time things get to me, that is on top of my thinking.

Please don't take my post wrong. I don't know you or your son and haven't had time to read the other posts you made.. maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he needs tough love, I don't know. I am in a similar situation and understanding has worked better.
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