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Old 12-23-2007, 10:07 AM
Location: NJ
9,173 posts, read 20,201,974 times
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Originally Posted by Beth56 View Post
Now about your son... To me his attitude is typical of someone his age who is defiant and manipulating. He is acting like a spoiled brat who is not getting what he wants. His scapegoat is your husband, poor guy. I am so glad to hear you defend your husband as you are now. He stood up to your son for you and now it is time to stand by your husband. Your mother is right, bless her heart. Your son is acting like if he just continues on this route, he can force you to make a choice, your husband or your son. I don't think your son liked the reprimand from your husband as he defended you. So now he is lashing out. His comments about his siblings are aimed at your husband in my opinion, not truly at them. I wouldn't worry too much about that right now. He says he won't go back to your home because of all the things your husband said. What about all the things he has said, has he forgotten those? I would remind him of that. He is trying to move the emphasis onto your husbands deeds and off him. He needs to recognize what he has also done. If he can't do that, it will be very difficult to move forward. Let's put it in Dr. Phil's words, "you can fix what you don't acknowledge". I would work on getting him to admit his past behavior and ask how he could have handled it differently. This is also true for you and your husband.

I would go forward as you outlined for Christmas. You have invited him. If he doesn't come, no gifts. That is his choice, not yours. The ball is in his court.

If you think your ex is behind this mess, then I would speak to him. But I'm not sure he is. Teenagers can do this kind of stuff all on their own, believe me, been there.
I agree with what you wrote.. but instead of the spoiled, I I think it's more the natural "father" putting thoughts into his head. I'll have to go back and reread, but something she wrote about things he said to her, made me think that. If this is the case.. and maybe the school counselor can get something out of him, tough love may not work and eventually make him angrier.

As for Christmas.. how about meeting for brunch or something.. just mom & son or mom and all the kids? It would be small steps to take for him to see how much he misses being a part of the family.
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Old 12-23-2007, 10:12 AM
2,222 posts, read 9,138,912 times
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Originally Posted by Roselvr View Post
At another forum I go to, someone posted that their online friend committed suicide.

I wouldn't go there. There has been no indication of her son going into depression or harming himself in any way.
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:21 AM
Location: In the sunshine on a ship with a plank
3,413 posts, read 7,834,257 times
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I think Wolves is doing well- she does not need to grovel at the feet of this spoiled teenager. She has made it crystal clear to this young man that she is available to him anytime he needs her but until he stops acting like a self centered little twit, I think tough love is perfectly appropriate.

We all know that if her son called her at any time, Twowolves would be there for him as quickly as humanly possible.

And as for the issue with the stepfather, my advice is to let them work it out. Your husband is more of a father than anyone else in his life. They have established a relationship of their own and they can work through this....... it will just take time.

Last edited by pirate girl; 12-23-2007 at 12:11 PM.. Reason: sp
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pirate girl View Post
I think Wolves is doing well- she does not need to grovel at the feet of this spoiled teenager. She has made it crystal clear to this young mad that she is available to him anytime he needs her but until he stops acting like a self centered little twit, I think tough love is perfectly appropriate.
Pretty accurate words. Isn't that called narcissistic-what teens are known for? Only he's a bit over-the-top.
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:18 PM
2,257 posts, read 3,453,686 times
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You have very little control over a manipulative 17 year old and his negligent father. The only thing you control is you and how you respond to their antics. I would forget about the problem kid and focus first on my own personal day to day happiness and the two children who depend on their mother. As the parent your are more important than him, take care of yourself first.
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Old 12-23-2007, 01:03 PM
Location: Chicago
2,467 posts, read 11,119,300 times
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Basically, your son is an angry guy. He was mad all the time, and took it out on you because you were "safe." Now he realizes that he can't treat you this way, and is taking it out on your husband. It has nothing to do with your husband's treatment of him. You need to make it firm that this treatment/talk about your husband isn't acceptable and you will also not listen to it, or tolerate it. This is in no way choosing your husband over your son, it's teaching your son to be a respectful individual. Your ex may not be helping the situation, but your son is getting old enough to take responsiblity for his actions. Again, if he can't come to your house and be respectful, no gifts! He needs to learn!
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Old 12-24-2007, 08:08 AM
Location: NJ
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I ended up reading all of the posts yesterday to get more of a feel of what's going on.

Someone had mentioned that he probably dug a hole that got so deep, he couldn't get out of.. I wonder if that's the case?

You've mentioned things in your posts.. it was the 2 of you until your hubby came along. You've always put your son 1st, and it's possible that he started having issues when his life started changing. Since you were the one that was doing the change, he was taking it out on you. I don't know how much time you spend 1 on 1 with him since the marriage & 2 kids and know it ia hard to actually do this regularly.

His natural father has attitude / abuse issues.. you mentioned it was why you left. In another post you said he cuts you down every chance he gets. You said:

Originally Posted by twowolves View Post
Son keeps saying how he 'dislikes, disrespects and also hates' me.....and refuses to go to the therapy appt I have set for Monday.....apparently his dad had just prior to this, called him on his cell phone saying 'You don't have to go to therapy, you don't have any issues, your mom is the problem, I know, I was with her for 5yrs'. !!!!!!!! The father is totally going against me, and is not at alll concerned with our son's anger problem.

How rude of the dad to know that there is much tension in this house where my son and my relationship is concerned.....but yet he feels free to add to it....all the while telling son 'you need to be patient and stay at your mom's a little longer until my finances get better'......but at the same time, stirring up more anger in my son which then adds to the tension here!!
So, here you go.. the natural father is most likely putting thoughts into his head. I don't doubt the kid is getting confused by that.

You've also said:

He is extremely intelligent, almost gifted. IQ ~122. Honors classes, just finished playing his last freshman FB game and yesterday began on the wrestling team.
This was his 1st year of high school IIRC

The arguement happened about 10/26.. in a post dated 11/8 the night was still being brought up. It seems to me that he is reaching out to you. like when you speak to his counselor when he is in the room. To me, he could be putting feelers out to see if he can come home and this can be put behind you. A few things stuck out.

Originally Posted by twowolves View Post
Moving on, she said 'he's still pretty angry about that night last week when he left your house...' I asked her what specifically and who at because primarily my husband did the 'yelling'. She then turned to my son and asked him what he was most hurt by from that 'night'. He said 'the things his stepdad said and also that I didn't stick up for him.' I usually do fight tooth and nail for my son, I have even magnified once in awhile a comment my husband might have said to my son over the yrs....and tried to acuse him of being a little too stern......when he really wasn't. So, my son is used to me putting him first even over my wonderful husband....only that awful night last week, I was virtually stunned at my husband's pent-up anger release...and just stool there with an open mouth. I actually did tell my husband to quiet down a few times and to 'watch what you say'......

I told her to relay to my son that I understand him being hurt...and that we are all hurt. Especially asked her to point out to son that his stepdad is VERY HURT by him too. And the way he's been treating me, his mother. I told her to tell my son that my husband didn't mean 90% of what was said that night, but that his anger must be dealt with because he can't come back here with that same disrespectful attitude and anger.
It's possible that he actually stopped listening when he heard the things I bolded. In his eyes, you are still not sticking up for him and I am not saying to.. Your son was wrong.. your husband said things.. telling him to get out.. if he is sensative, these things sting, especially after the relationship the two of you had as he was growing up and up until this point.. for his mother to side with his SD, had to be a big blow to him. He came to love your husband, then his natural father came back into the picture.. he was trying to deal with that, then the blow up happens and the man he looks up to told him to get out. FWIW, my DH has said it to my daughter. I can't tell you how badly it upset her.. hearing from the man she loves so much telling her to get out and she's pretty much not welcomed here.

I also read about his current living conditions, no bedroom, the natural father drinking, losing his license to DUI, doesn't cook plus his friends aren't close to him now. He may be truely alone.

While your son may not have ODD, there may be some anger issues on his fathers side of the family. Being 14, he probably doesn't understand how to deal with this on his own. If he has ADHD, he very well may not even realize what he's doing or saying until after it's out. Maybe he is saying things he means, maybe he doesn't mean it; he needs to be shown how to deal with his feelings instead of lashing out.

Are you still seeing the counselor? If not, I feel that going back in would be a good step even if you have to go alone for now. The counselor can coach you on how to get past this situation. As of right now your son knows how hurt everyone is, you need to move forward not back. Both of my kids tell me.. mom, why do you keep saying the same thing over & over.. I heard you the 1st time.. you don't need to keep saying it. With my daughter who does have ODD, I do find that moving forward after it's been discussed works good for us. If she gets out of line, I take something away.. usually the cell & or computer. You have to be consistant.

Think about how you've delt with it in the past.. were you lenient? Well all of a sudden you go from nothing to taking everything away, not doimng things for him.. Punishing kids is not a science.. there are no rules, it all depends on the child. If he gets mouthy you walk away for a few minutes if you can't keep your cool, then come back & say.. look, you are not going to speak to me like that, and every time that you do, I will take your internet away for 30 minutes. I am not going to tell you, I'm just going to do it. Then follow through. You both have to work up to the punishment, then as time goes on, if he doesn't get better, take something else away in addition to it. I've heard a kid say that they wanted to kill themselves because they were punished too harshly. Now, I know you don't want to hear those words and I'm seriously hope you never have to bring your child to a medical center because they said that at school. It is not a pleasant experience. I do not know your son. I do not know what is going through his head, especially after reading the 3 posts you have. I don't think anyone can tell you that. You know his life from when he was born up until now, so far he's lashed out with his mouth, what more does he have?

This specific incident has gone on for almost 2 months. You've gotten a lot of great advice in the posts (I handed out some reps) but there comes a time when posting on the internet isn't working and you need to find a professional that can personally work with the two of you. While I understand he will not go to counseling, it may work to bring a friend of his with you or maybe your mother. For my daughter who has refused to go, I found that surprisingly she is more comfortable when I am out of the room and her best friend is with her.

You've asked some questions in your other posts:

Originally Posted by twowolves View Post
The one big 'glitch' I think that I am having a harder time overcoming is this.....my son has an anger problem, so by me using tough love-which would probably further anger him, I feel like I am contributing to his anger problem, thereby making him MORE angry.

Does that make sense to anyone out there?
Yes, it makes sense..

Please, if you are not going to counseling, pick up the phone and call. Get some help on how to get your son to get through this and find a happy medium for all of you.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:00 AM
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Default Roselvr...

Your post was very insightful. I think you have a good grasp of the situation for being out there in cyberspace.

I think my son has just a few ODD signs, although not near enough to be diagnosed with it. Believe me, I have looked ODD up many a time....trying to see if he shows it. He does have ADD, not hyper though.

He definitely is acting defiant though. You may just have a point where you were going over the actual mtg where he was in the guidance counselor's office and I was on the phone.

Where you described the sequence of events-all those yrs son was my priority even over dh, around puberty son became increasingly disrespectful to me.....over a long period of time.....his dad becoming more in the forefront of his life (which was bad too cuz I think it's when the real poisoning began).....and finally that night in late October where my dh let out his anger full-blown.....which he's never done to son before.....and instead of my usual 'defend' my son mode, I just stood there in disbelief and almost relief-as my son had been so mean to me for the prior whole month +. I just couldn't take it anymore. Something had to change.

We have been with my husband since my son was 4, so it's not like I just got married or anything, but the two little ones were added to our family right around son hitting puberty......and also when he teens are supposed to detach from their moms (well, boys atleast)....the new little ones were maybe a 'wrench' in that developmental phase for my son-who was very close to me....now trying to detach....but maybe hesitant because now there are 2 little ones who maybe son felt would just take his place in my heart?....so, maybe it was placing a burden on my son for him to detach when that's what he is supposed to do........making it confusing for him.....so-he lashes out? I just don't know......about the part of this story where son feels/felt he needed to say such hurtful things to me, prior to that 'night'.....which led up to that 'night'.

He was a very strong-willed child, with ADD and was difficult for me at times. He liked to challenge my authority, always questioning me, specifically when I said 'no' to something he wanted to do. He even frequently complained (like at 9 and 10) about his 9pm bedtime-which I felt was lenient, saying his friends didn't have a bedtime....stuff like that. I also let him be a bit too mouthy and it got to be a habit for him, my fault. Then he'd take it too far, (his arguing) and before he knew it, was in trouble for arguing, when I was his mother and should've nipped it in the bud way before it reached that point. Again, this was part of my baggage he had to carry-I felt guilty for him not having his father in the picture, and other things. Thus, I let him have too much of a 'sassy' mouth.

He still brings this up, saying that 'we fought all the time', meaning him and me. Yes, it was a bad cycle of poor communication.....he'd argue, I'd get stern w/him for arguing and then he'd be in trouble...that's the part he remembers.....and is still angry about.

Of course we didn't fight all the time, but thats what his child memory is remembering.

Son has been very against counseling. I said we did it before and it accomplished nothing. However, my husband has been saying and sticking with this: in order for my son to come back into this house, if and when that may happen, he HAS to agree to counseling for his anger.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:05 AM
1,472 posts, read 2,231,714 times
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Default Christmas Update....

I got a call this morning from the paternal grandma. She recently was in the presence of my son and myself in the same room, 2wks ago. She heard him be rude to me, just light 'digs' if you will. She was very angered....and at one point had to leave the room or she said she was going to 'slap' him! Anyway, she has been working on son and his treatment of me. As son and the dad are sort of living at her house.

Her call was regarding this: she and son are going to 'bake' some kind of dish for me to just pop in the oven on Christmas morning for breakfast-they will prepare it today and bring it over later!! Yes, to this house! Where son has been refusing to come!

I asked her 'how did you get him to do it and agree to bring it here?' She said she just told him what they were gonna do....and then bring it over here....and he said 'ok'. I can't believe it!

I will post later as to what happens......say a prayer for us.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:08 AM
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Here's my take on it from the kid of divorced parents point of view. It may be a stretch, but maybe not. You said his dad has been in and out of his life. That stinks for the kid because as much as you can see what's really going on, that kid just wants his father to love and WANT him-doesn't matter how many times they get hurt, we'll take whatever bone it thrown sometimes. Now that his dad is back in his life, I'm betting he's lashing out at your husband because at 15, he can't reconcile in his self how to love both of these men without feeling like he's betraying his bio-logical father-the man he thinks he should be loyal to. And it sounds like your ex is probably not the type of guy telling him that it's ok that he loves both "fathers". It sounds like you're doing a great job, but if ALL of his parents are not on the same page and giving him the same message, then you are going to have a helluva time for the rest of his teenage years. The only reason I made it through mine with all of my step-parents and parents was because my mother and father made it clear that my step-parents were to be respected just as much as they were in their absense-mom made this point re: step mom and dad re: step dad. If we told my father my stepfather disciplined us he would say, "Damn straight he should and you better listen when he does." If that could happen with your son and his father, I bet you would see a huge improvement. But until then, it's not going to matter how much you defend your husband because his father is likely sending the message that either A) you're choosing your husband over your child and B) that's not his father so who cares. I'm sorry you're dealing with this-especially through the holidays.

PS: When your son comes around-he will so regret saying that about his brothers. I can't even fathom considering my father's kids with my stepmother ANYTHING but my brother and sister, and it makes me want to cry even trying to think of them the way your son referred to his brothers.
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