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Old 08-09-2014, 08:37 PM
 
43,012 posts, read 89,076,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
Having an abortion or giving a child up for adoption is an act that will follow a woman for the rest of her life and can cause permanent mental problems and depression, especially if she is forced to do either against her will. I think it should be her decision even though she is 16. Also, I knew a family whose daughter got pregnant at 16 and they forced her to have an abortion. What did she do? Go right out and get pregnant again to replace the aborted baby. This happened to them a couple of times until they gave up when she was 18 and she had a baby she kept. After that, she wasn't getting preggers over and over again.
A few of my childhood friends were forced to have abortions, and they didn't react like the girl you know. The graduated from high school, went off to college, and didn't have children until after they married. Of course it's ideal for teenagers to make the decision themselves, but stop acting like it will be doom and gloom for all. The ones who suffered lifelong issues were likely mentally ill before the abortion. Change "will follow a woman for the rest of her life" to "could follow a woman for the rest of her life."
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:09 PM
 
15,767 posts, read 13,199,215 times
Reputation: 19652
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoProIP View Post
Likeeee?

Just the other day someone at my grocery store had the same type of story, and she was saying how the "16 year old" was confident that WIC was going to give her food etc! Why in the world are these kids so entitled? who is teaching them that is "ok" to have kids at 16??? we no longer live in the 1400's! WTH
Well lets see.

First, with regards to TANF, a teen mom must go to school, must live at home with her parents, must be working within 2 years, has a lifetime limit of 5 years, no increase in benefit if she has more children, typical cash for a single mom and child is $327. Maybe another $200 in food stamps OR WIC.

Your notions of welfare are just plain old wrong and have been for nearly 20 years.

No one has a baby because it is cost effective.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:16 PM
 
15,767 posts, read 13,199,215 times
Reputation: 19652
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
Would that be the 13 Colonies? LMAO!

You're talking about the British Elizabethan Poor Laws of 1601 (adapted from English policies about the poor from the 1500s) of England and Wales for crying out loud!

I thought ALL of the United States got out from under British law in 1776. Who knew there were some straggler states still under it? LOL!

As for the "grandparents are frequently held to be financially responsible for the children of their minor children," let's just pretend to entertain the mistaken assertion that some of the states are still under British law, and go ahead and show me where it says that:

The 1601 Elizabethan Poor Law

This is the only mention of familial status in the above is:



... which, according to this explanation, does NOT represent that families are responsible for supporting each other because "everyone in need was looked after at the expense of the parish," but merely maintains they are "expected to" live with each other. "Expected to" -- not even that they "have to." How was the relief paid for? Property taxes were levied upon owners of property by the parish.

Further, here's the actual text of the law, with "modernised" spelling (but still Queen's English LOL since it is a British law) for easier readability (from a British Socialist website of all things):

Poor Law 1601

Here's what they do with children (and grandchildren) of the indigent rather than do nothing to "force" their penniless families to be "financially responsible for them" ... turn them into indentured labor until the age of 21 (or marriage, whichever comes first) for girls and 24 for boys:



Act for the Relief of the Poor 1601 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This Wiki overview has more information about the "Poor Relief Act 1601 (43 Eliz 1 c 2)":



And its main points are:



So, according to your post above, "some states" are still under this 1601 Act of the Parliament of England and thus would still have almshouses/poorhouses for those who are "lame, impotent, old, and blind," Houses of Industry for "able-bodied poor," Houses of Correction for "idle poor and vagrants," and pauper children being turned into indentured apprentices (child labor) until they reach their early 20s. Not to mention, of course, nowhere does it actually say anything even vaguely resembling "grandparents are frequently held to be financially responsible for the children of their minor children."

Yeah right!

Please give us a break here.

This discussion is really getting surreal!


What I said was, "In 13 states (cited previously) and any that have Elizabeth [sic] Poor laws, yes, grandparents are frequently held to be financially responsible for the children of their minor children." Read it a few times if you need to. Slowly maybe.

As stated, it was cited in another post but since you have that issue….

SupportGuidelines.com | Article: The Child Support Obligations of Grandparents

"To date, thirteen states have enacted a statute that provides for such grandparent liability for child support."

"Other states have statutes that predate the Welfare Reform Act, and are modeled more along the lines of the Elizabethan Poor Laws."

And finally the Welfare Reform Act of 1996, require that any minor teen parent collecting any sort of financial assistance remain in the home, and under the support of their parents.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:20 PM
 
15,767 posts, read 13,199,215 times
Reputation: 19652
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
It can also free her to have a much better life. Don't act like it's all boo hoo and regret becaue most women actually don't regret.

I told my D that if she got pregnant she would have an abortion if she wanted to keep living with me and having my support, or move in with baby daddy. Thankfully it never came up since she doesn't even like or want kids

I'd REALLY talk to this child about it and sleep well at night even if she didn't like the idea. Plus having baby daddy involved in her life forever may/may not be appealing.
I am a believer in the rights of all women to be in charge of their reproductive health, AKA pro-choice. The notion that anyone thinks it is appropriate to force a young woman to have an abortion is as abhorrent to me as the notion that someone could stop a young woman from getting one if she wanted one.

You have the right to be displeased, to place your teen child out of your home etc. but the idea that you think you have control over her reproductive rights is insane. As for the bolded, unless you can provide a link to support the above it is a ridiculous claim. Seriously, do you have numbers to back up the notion that forcing someone to have an abortion against their will is something that "most don't regret" ?
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:45 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,776,791 times
Reputation: 4539
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
What I said was, "In 13 states (cited previously) and any that have Elizabeth [sic] Poor laws, yes, grandparents are frequently held to be financially responsible for the children of their minor children." Read it a few times if you need to. Slowly maybe.

As stated, it was cited in another post but since you have that issue….

SupportGuidelines.com | Article: The Child Support Obligations of Grandparents

"To date, thirteen states have enacted a statute that provides for such grandparent liability for child support."

"Other states have statutes that predate the Welfare Reform Act, and are modeled more along the lines of the Elizabethan Poor Laws."

And finally the Welfare Reform Act of 1996, require that any minor teen parent collecting any sort of financial assistance remain in the home, and under the support of their parents.
Trying to educate I Love LI but about the law is just an exercise in futility.
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:14 PM
 
Location: IE CA.
643 posts, read 2,168,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell Plotts View Post
In many situations a birth mother can opt for an open adoption. She interviews prospective adoptive parents and they come to a written agreement about her right to visit the child, almost the same as visitation agreements in a divorce. Frankly I think that solution meets the needs of many young birth mothers. As that child gets older she will learn she wasn't abandoned or 'thrown away', her birth mother cared for her a great deal. Now is the time for the mother-to-be to start counseling with someone who will help her see her choices and responsibilities.
Awesome suggestion! Its so open now and people agree to it. Really good idea.
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:25 PM
 
3,337 posts, read 3,271,498 times
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I agree that no one should be forced into an abortion, even if the pregnant child's reason for not wanting to have an abortion is fear of the procedure being painful (as if childbirth weren't a hell of a lot more painful!) That's why we have legal consent laws in this country. No one will perform an abortion on a woman unless she consents to it, and signs for consent. However, a parent can bring a lot of pressure on a child - to stay in school, to study hard, to clean up her room, to help in the house. In the same way that a parent can say to a sixteen year old, "You are NOT getting in a car with that boy!, your wife can say to her, "There is no way in hell that you are going through the same thing that I went through. You're having an abortion, and then you're going on Depo until you're out on your own, and you're going to finish school and go to college or get a job, and then you'll move out on your own. And THEN, when you're totally self-supporting, and hopefully married to someone who also works, THEN if you want to have a baby, you will. And we'll be loving grandparents. But there is no way in hell that you are bringing a baby into this house, when I have had to make the decision that I and my husband cannot AFFORD to have a child together! And that's the end of it. I'm making an appointment at the clinic for you and we are going to it and you are having an abortion!"

Now, if the girl refuses to go to the clinic, or refuses to sign consent for the procedure, so be it. And if she decides to have the child, and refuses to give it up for adoption, so be it. The girl does have the ultimate say in this matter, even if mom pressures her. But if this is what happens, that mom allows her to bring home a baby for you two to raise, I would suggest that you get out of the marriage! Your wife should be telling her daughter in no uncertain terms, "It is NOT your right to have a baby while you are living at home! You are NOT doing this to me and my husband! That's what bothers me here - your wife didn't control this girl, didn't see that she was getting involved with a boy, and didn't get her on Depo. And now she is not telling her, "No way are you putting this stress on my marriage and my household! You will have an abortion or put the baby up for adoption and finish school." Essentially, your wife is just giving in, and allowing this girl to ruin your marriage. The girl has put your wife and you in a terrible position, and your wife is not stepping up to the plate for your marriage (or frankly, for her daughter's welfare, either).

If she does go through with the abortion, she will be FINE. She will be relieved, and forget about it almost immediately. Do not believe the BS line that women suffer psychologically after an abortion. Their body goes back to where it was before the pregnancy, and so does their mental state. If she was an immature, thoughtless teen, she will continue as such until she grows up. If she was mentally ill, she will continue as such. If she was a stable girl who "made a mistake", she will go back to the same stability. Those who claim that abortion harms women psychologically are the same people who preach that pregnancy (and disease) are god's rightful punishment for the terrible sin of having sex! Every legitimate study demonstrates that virtually all women who have abortions are relieved and go on with their lives. And if she goes on Depo there is no fear of her getting pregnant again to say, "So there! If you say I can't have a baby, I'll just go out and get pregnant again! This is by FAR the best option for your stepdaughter, your wife, you, and your entire family. An abortion is much easier to go through than continuing the pregnancy and giving up the baby for adoption. THAT DOES lead to lifelong psychological stress - where is the baby? Is it being well cared for? Did I make a mistake in giving it up? Will he/she come looking for me later on? Will he/she blame me? It is far more traumatic to continue the pregnancy, and then go through the pain of adoption, than to simply have an early abortion.

If your wife cannot exert her parental authority over her own child, then your marriage has no future. If this girl intends to bring home a baby for you and your wife to raise, and your wife cannot say no to her, what's to stop her from bringing home another within a year, and then another, and another? This is actually a very common scenario - many teen mothers get pregnant again very quickly. If your wife is going to allow her to bring that baby home, then you should get out of there. Don't waste your precious youth (and you are still young - many men don't marry and have kids until your age) with a woman who has no authority over her out of control teenage daughter, to the point that she will stick you with raising her daughter's baby, when she and you have decided that you cannot afford to have a child together. You have no obligation to support your wife's children, and if it's a recent marriage, probably no obligation to support her, either. You don't have a parenting problem. You have a marital problem, in that your wife thinks that it is acceptable for her 16 year old daughter to stick you with raising her child. Get out of there, separate your finances from hers, and forget about her. You have a brighter future without this woman, who wants you to raise her teen's baby, instead of your own with her.
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
39,195 posts, read 37,806,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parentologist View Post
I agree that no one should be forced into an abortion, even if the pregnant child's reason for not wanting to have an abortion is fear of the procedure being painful (as if childbirth weren't a hell of a lot more painful!) That's why we have legal consent laws in this country. No one will perform an abortion on a woman unless she consents to it, and signs for consent. However, a parent can bring a lot of pressure on a child - to stay in school, to study hard, to clean up her room, to help in the house. In the same way that a parent can say to a sixteen year old, "You are NOT getting in a car with that boy!, your wife can say to her, "There is no way in hell that you are going through the same thing that I went through. You're having an abortion, and then you're going on Depo until you're out on your own, and you're going to finish school and go to college or get a job, and then you'll move out on your own. And THEN, when you're totally self-supporting, and hopefully married to someone who also works, THEN if you want to have a baby, you will. And we'll be loving grandparents. But there is no way in hell that you are bringing a baby into this house, when I have had to make the decision that I and my husband cannot AFFORD to have a child together! And that's the end of it. I'm making an appointment at the clinic for you and we are going to it and you are having an abortion!"

Now, if the girl refuses to go to the clinic, or refuses to sign consent for the procedure, so be it. And if she decides to have the child, and refuses to give it up for adoption, so be it. The girl does have the ultimate say in this matter, even if mom pressures her. But if this is what happens, that mom allows her to bring home a baby for you two to raise, I would suggest that you get out of the marriage! Your wife should be telling her daughter in no uncertain terms, "It is NOT your right to have a baby while you are living at home! You are NOT doing this to me and my husband! That's what bothers me here - your wife didn't control this girl, didn't see that she was getting involved with a boy, and didn't get her on Depo. And now she is not telling her, "No way are you putting this stress on my marriage and my household! You will have an abortion or put the baby up for adoption and finish school." Essentially, your wife is just giving in, and allowing this girl to ruin your marriage. The girl has put your wife and you in a terrible position, and your wife is not stepping up to the plate for your marriage (or frankly, for her daughter's welfare, either).

If she does go through with the abortion, she will be FINE. She will be relieved, and forget about it almost immediately. Do not believe the BS line that women suffer psychologically after an abortion. Their body goes back to where it was before the pregnancy, and so does their mental state. If she was an immature, thoughtless teen, she will continue as such until she grows up. If she was mentally ill, she will continue as such. If she was a stable girl who "made a mistake", she will go back to the same stability. Those who claim that abortion harms women psychologically are the same people who preach that pregnancy (and disease) are god's rightful punishment for the terrible sin of having sex! Every legitimate study demonstrates that virtually all women who have abortions are relieved and go on with their lives. And if she goes on Depo there is no fear of her getting pregnant again to say, "So there! If you say I can't have a baby, I'll just go out and get pregnant again! This is by FAR the best option for your stepdaughter, your wife, you, and your entire family. An abortion is much easier to go through than continuing the pregnancy and giving up the baby for adoption. THAT DOES lead to lifelong psychological stress - where is the baby? Is it being well cared for? Did I make a mistake in giving it up? Will he/she come looking for me later on? Will he/she blame me? It is far more traumatic to continue the pregnancy, and then go through the pain of adoption, than to simply have an early abortion.

If your wife cannot exert her parental authority over her own child, then your marriage has no future. If this girl intends to bring home a baby for you and your wife to raise, and your wife cannot say no to her, what's to stop her from bringing home another within a year, and then another, and another? This is actually a very common scenario - many teen mothers get pregnant again very quickly. If your wife is going to allow her to bring that baby home, then you should get out of there. Don't waste your precious youth (and you are still young - many men don't marry and have kids until your age) with a woman who has no authority over her out of control teenage daughter, to the point that she will stick you with raising her daughter's baby, when she and you have decided that you cannot afford to have a child together. You have no obligation to support your wife's children, and if it's a recent marriage, probably no obligation to support her, either. You don't have a parenting problem. You have a marital problem, in that your wife thinks that it is acceptable for her 16 year old daughter to stick you with raising her child. Get out of there, separate your finances from hers, and forget about her. You have a brighter future without this woman, who wants you to raise her teen's baby, instead of your own with her.
I cannot believe any human being would have this point of view. It is truly horrifying.

There are SO MANY other ways of looking at this situation than this viewpoint. GUARANTEED to hurt the most people.

Last edited by Jaded; 08-10-2014 at 02:02 AM..
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,969 posts, read 13,776,791 times
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Originally Posted by Wmsn4Life View Post
I cannot believe any human being would have this point of view. It is truly horrifying.

There are SO MANY other ways of looking at this situation than this viewpoint. GUARANTEED to hurt the most people.
This.

Last edited by Jaded; 08-10-2014 at 02:03 AM..
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:35 PM
 
2,839 posts, read 4,764,849 times
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Originally Posted by Sad-Dad View Post
I'm still here...

There has been a lot going on lately but one thing that hasnt change is the fact that this boys mother has failed to contact us after numerous text messages and voicemails. It has been 6 days today and we have yet to hear from her or any other adult of that family but they have been harassing my daughter and have been making her feel guilty about her decision now.

Yesterday when I got home from work there was some type of intervention going on between my wife, close family friend that daughter sees as a second mom, a few of her closest friends and myself. I really didn't say anything since I wanted to keep what I had to say between my wife and daughter but I can tell you that my daughters friends where all trying to talk her out of it meaning an abortion. My wife was being supportive and so was the family friend as far as her final choice. I said "I'm not kicking you out of our home if you have this baby and I'm going against everything i believe in to be there for you since you have no idea what is about to come your way. You aren't a little girl anymore and we all would've like it if you had finish school but what is done is done and you will have to grow up a lot quicker now. I can't guarantee what tomorrow will bring but I we will take this on day by day".

We'll little did I knew that apparently the boyfriend had been calling her all day and told her he would leave her when my daughter told him that maybe she should get an abortion (don't know what made her think like that when it looked like she was keeping the baby) and he was treating her crap over text messages and insulting her.... My first reactions where to leave my house and go find this little ****er and make sure he isn't able to breed ever again!! As we where in the group her friends where telling her that this isn't the kind of guy you should have a kid with, how dare him be so so disrespectful to you, he doesn't love you, he's already not sticking by your side so what makes you think he's going to be there for the both of you etc... As these young girls ages 14-16 where telling her all of this I must admit times are changed and this changed my perspective of how I viewed teen girls. My wife then steps in and tells her daughter that no matter what she decides she will have her support on what she decides and hugs her daughter. The girls then goes to my daughters room and then after a while they come down and my daughter tells her mom that the boy kept insulting her and threatens to leaves her so she now wants to proceed with an abortion.

I'm going to fast forward since I'm about to start my shift at work!!!
Since my wife and I have to work our friend asked if my daughter can sleep over her house for a couple of days so that she doesn't stay home alone and has some support around her which we agree that was best to do. For the last 2 days this boy and his mother have been harassing my daughter via text putting fear in her and telling her all sorts of things and that she's even going to hell for getting an abortion. She even told her that her son is stressed out and if something happens to him she is responsible and all kinds of crazy things. It's been really bad and they won't even let her sleep with the constant text messages. I find this highly disturbing that the boys mom would contact my daughter but hasn't even bothered to give as a call or answer our texts at all.

I don't know what today will bring but I believe my wife is going to be calling the authorities because of all the harassment and drama they are putting our daughter thru.
Glad you came to your senses, as for the "bf," (seriously your daughter considers that they are still together?!) no matter what, he will not be by her side. If she keeps the baby he will not help out at all, if she aborts he'll say she's a bad person. He has no intention of staying with her and has an excuse either way "I'm not ready for this responsibility anymore" when the child gets here or "I can't be with someone who murdered my child." Either way let your stepdaughter know that he would do his best to hurt her either way because he's an immature kid. Relationships are the last thing that need to be on her mind. And not just that, but the way the mother is acting is a HUGE indication that she is CRAZY and instead of calling you guys back and discussing things as mature adults she's harassing your daughter? Yeah, she's definitely going to be a nightmare and always treat your daughter poorly and the "bf" will always put his mom before your daughter and this child.

Honestly, I'm not for abortion but at 16 I hope she decides to go with this. If she gets the abortion, get her on the pill or depo or something afterwards (I'm sure that's the plan).

If she doesn't, then it's great you guys will be there to support her. If she were my daughter, the party would be over though. She'd either have to quit school (if neither I nor my husband could be at home during the day- which I assume since you are both young you both work and can't be home to help care for the baby) and go to adult school, or go to school during the day and then as soon as she gets home takes care of her baby and does her hw. I'd probably also have her working any free time she could because babies are expensive. I hope she is insured through your wife, if not, then I'd be getting her on medicaid or whatever state insurance NOW (if she is keeping the baby). Then I'd look into getting her everything she needs secondhand, crib, baby clothes, etc. She can breastfeed and cloth diaper to save money as well (heck I am and I have a great career and I'm 31!).

I mean obviously don't make life easy for her by allowing her to be a teen while you guys become "new parents" again, but it's good you have taken away the threat of kicking her out. As for your stepson and son, hopefully seeing their sister go through this will make them more determined to NOT go through it. Seeing their sister at 16 have to become an adult, no more hanging out with girlfriends and going out shopping and having fun, etc, having her life be about her baby AND being a single mom is hard. Talk to them about it, tell them while sometimes the best of us eat our words, you want them to realize what their sister is undertaking is NOT easy and emphasize that condoms are a must when they become active!

Just remember she can still do it. My friend got pregnant young, her mom had died a few years before, but she moved in with an aunt, finished college, and now takes care of her son and has a good life. The deadbeat dad is nowhere to be found. Her aunt helped as much as she could, but my friend's whole life became about her son, as it should have of course.

Good luck to her, no matter what she decides, tell her you are in her corner, and don't belittle her! But hopefully no matter what she never entertains speaking to this guy again. He's obviously proven himself to be scum.

Also, I'm glad your wife is finally stepping up and protecting your daughter and calling the cops about harassment. You two definitely need to say "do not threaten our daughter ever again, your son has as much to "blame" and unless you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to talk to us about, then you need to leave us alone." Unless they are going to be supportive I'd also tell them you will call the cops if they send anymore harassing messages. Your daughter is also NOT to reply any longer, if she can't not reply, take the phone, also any social media like FB she should block him and block anyone who is not a friend from messaging or adding her (yes this option is available). Maybe even keep her out of school and away from social media until a decision is made.

These people telling her she'll go to hell and all that other crap is not helping. IDK what your step daughter has said, but if she's told them she's getting an abortion and this is their response then there is no need for them to communicate to her any longer.

One more thing to add, if she keeps the baby and they are jerks about everything, she should NOT tell him when she goes into labor (or anyone else), she should check in as private at the hospital, know her RIGHTS that his family and the sperm donor do not have to be at the hospital. They have no rights really when it come to the birth mother in the hospital (I know I'm about to have a baby and nobody is allowed to come with me but hubby- no matter how disappointed the rest of the family is that I've chosen to not make my birth a spectator sport). And yes there is a new law that passed recently that said the father has no rights in the hospital when a mom is giving birth. It really should only be her and her mom in the room when she goes into labor at this point anyways. Stress can cause labor complications, you don't want your step daughter stressed.

Good luck OP!
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