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I have two beautiful teenage daughters. The oldest is a typical type A oldest child, smart, a leader, and wants everything done her way. The youngest is quieter, dreamy, struggles to maintain her baby status, is smart but fairly lazy and content to just float through life. Not much in the way of goals or ambitions.
Both girls are VERY emotionally sensitive and VERY intense. As younguns they were high energy, didn't sleep much, stubborn, and were not easy to schedule in any way. You can see where they got these qualities on both sides of the family tree. I have learned MUCH patience in the last 17 years!
Dad moved out 8 years ago. He is a DisneyDad, loves to show his love by opening his wallet. His idea of discipline is the give the offender the cold shoulder/stern disapproval. He thinks that if people love him, they should prove it by doing what he wants. Pretty self-involved. I've had trouble over the years keeping him involved in what the kids are doing. He takes an interest, but still puts his own needs first. I'm the hands on mom, and I generally opt for Natural Consequences of misbehavior. Luckily they are good kids and generally make good choices. We aren't talking about the neighborhood hell-raisers, here.
Dad had cancer, then Divorce, relocation, middle school, remarriage (Dad has a new wife and two new kids!), etc. It's been a bumpy ride with typical divorced family emotional challenges.
Both girls have had their share of emotional ups and downs, but youngest is showing many signs of inheriting the family bi-polar curse. It's been a struggle to keep her on an even keel. Even at 14 she is very moody and still somewhat physically volatile. If she feels pushed hard enough, she will lash out physically. We've had a few small broken items in the house, some stuff thrown at sister, and a few blows have been exchanged. Both girls have been to counseling, that's an ongoing challenge in itself.
There is a fair amount of sibling rivalry which we have tried to alleviate by dividing and conquering. We make sure each girl gets alone time with each parent and grandparent. Sometimes they are great together, sometimes they fight. I've been taking the approach that I don't want to get involved in she said/she said blow by blow accounts of their arguments, I want them to work things out for themselves. But when youngest lashes out, Oldest is mad that no one punishes her for it. Yet I have seen oldest back her sister into a corner, both literally and figuratively, refusing to back down when common sense would advise it. I think she can be a bully, and I've called her on it many times. Youngest can be a brat, and I've called her on it many times. Naturally, as a single working mom I am not usually home when they are at their worst. They fight less at Dad's house but Youngest is still struggling with stepfamily stuff and has lots of meltdowns there about other things.
Last weekend, after a long day of step family entertainment at an amusement park, youngest left the bathroom door open a crack while using the toilet. Oldest entered to brush her teeth. Youngest asked for privacy, oldest refused to leave, They got into a fight, youngest smeared toothpaste in oldests hair, oldest pushed or hit her, youngest lashed back and scratched her sisters face.
Dad was in charge, and was unable to decide on a suitable punishment, settled for glaring and silent treatment towards Youngest. Oldest milked that scratch for all the sympathy she could get. Since it takes two to tango, I declined to punish either girl, since A) it didn't happen on my watch and I think punishment should be immediate or not at all and B) isn't the fight and the bad feelings enough? but we will have new ground rules for sharing the bathroom or not.
Now I'm in charge, and Oldest is furious with me for 'taking Youngest's side as usual' and failing to implement effective consequences. I have asked her before and asked her this time what she thinks would be appropriate. She has no ideas (That is my job, she says). I don't want this to be what she takes away from her first 18 years on the planet....that Mom always takes Youngest's side. I DO make accommodations for youngest's fragile emotional state. And I do want both of them to learn better impulse control.
So, this is where we are. I don't want any great thoughts on how I SHOULD have been disciplining all along. Let's start with this incident right here: If this were your kids, would you deal out 'punishment' for the bathroom scuffle, and if so, what would it be?
I don't think you should do anything. I agree that it wasn't your watch. If children do something wrong at home, the school doesn't punish them. The same applies to when children are at the other divorced parent's houses. The punishment should have happened at the father's house. You wouldn't expect the father to punish them for something that happened at your house.
Your oldest child shouldn't dictate how you parent. You have to recognize that she could be manipulative and trying to get her younger sister into trouble by asking you to punish her at this late date. The oldest was not an innocent victim. They were both wrong. I guarantee if you punish the younger one, the older one will be smug and make fun of her when you're not home.
As for taking the younger one's side, you can always do what my parents always said, "You should know better because you're older." The oldest always got in trouble in my house. There's not a darn thing wrong with drawing that line in the sand when you have teens who are constantly fighting and none are innocent because the eldest in the scuffle should be more mature and responsible. I highly suspect your oldest is an instigator and loves to push her little sister's buttons.
If you insist on dolling out a punishment, punish them both equally. That will show your oldest that she can't dictate parenting. This is going the military route where everyone gets punished as a group. Knowing that they'll both be punished might take away the joy of getting the other into trouble after instigating a physical reaction from her. Initiating the "everyone gets punished" as a new standard policy also eliminates your continually trying to figure out who is the most wrong every time something happens.
Last weekend, after a long day of step family entertainment at an amusement park, youngest left the bathroom door open a crack while using the toilet. Oldest entered to brush her teeth. Youngest asked for privacy, oldest refused to leave, They got into a fight, youngest smeared toothpaste in oldests hair, oldest pushed or hit her, youngest lashed back and scratched her sisters face.
So, this is where we are. I don't want any great thoughts on how I SHOULD have been disciplining all along. Let's start with this incident right here: If this were your kids, would you deal out 'punishment' for the bathroom scuffle, and if so, what would it be?
They are both at fault for bad behavior. Since it occurred at dad's house I would not be doling out any actual punishment and I would be very clear that HE is the one who should have handled that part.
I would, however, sit them both down and have a frank discussion step by step starting with how it ended and work backwards so they can follow along the trail from end to beginning. Cause and effect.
Then you all will find that IF the younger had simply shut the door all the way (and perhaps locked it) the older could not have entered, therefore preventing the entire incident. So, you take the younger one to the bathroom door (doesn't matter that it's not the same one) and have her practice going in and closing it fully and locking it. Do this over and over and over.
If the older had stopped from entering after finding her sister using the restroom, that would have prevented it. Now you have younger in the bathroom and the older has to practice walking in and finding it occupied and walking back out. Do this over and over and over.
You can go further by having the younger ask for privacy and the older must do as asked. The older can take her toothbrush and toothpaste to another sink to brush her teeth. And so on.
The idea is to show them how ridiculous their behavior was, what it caused and how easily it could have been avoided. Then there's the part about how they now had to spend an hour(or more) learning basic respect for each other that they should have shown to each other that night.
If the older is still looking for punishment, then say something that seems crazy. :-)
Like.......I am going to remove the bathroom door at home so that anyone can see if it's occupied or vacant, since it was not readily apparent. And since it didn't matter that it was occupied, anyone can come in to brush their teeth at anytime. If you need to brush your teeth, you must come to me to get me to put toothpaste on your brush so that it can't possibly get in anyone's hair. And, if you simply feel there is no other choice but to get physical, then come to me and I'll provide you with boxing gloves and an open space and you can go at it.
After they look at you like you have two heads, simply state, if it ever happens again, this is exactly what you will do. Period. Then walk off and leave them hanging.
Your oldest did not respect her sister's bathroom privacy. And your youngest responded physically. I would say that they both have some fault in this, but it sounds like the oldest was instigating.
My initial impulse is to say I would tell them that they need to work it out between themselves and I'm not going to micromanage their argument.
I'm also a fan of natural and logical consequences. So another idea along those lines would be that since they have damaged their relationship, they need to do something that helps repair it. Maybe do something for one another, or complete a project together.
My oldest is only 8, so I'm not really in that whole teen phase yet. But recently when she did something that was relationship-damaging, her punishment was to write a note of apology in the format of "I'm sorry for ____. It was wrong because ____. In the future I will ____." That's probably a bit young for your situation though.
I would punish them both, but only slightly. Here's my thinking....
I would sit them both down and said that at older's request, you rethought the situation. Reiterate how you see it: oldest instigated it, but youngest took it too far. Reiterate what you said about punishment belonging to the household it happened in (but I would state that that happens in regular instances, not big ones like drinking, smoking, etc), and that the marks and hurt feelings are a continued punishment that they gave themselves. BUT, then I would tell them that you are giving them the punishment of whatever (sorry, I'm not sure what, maybe no electronics for a day or two?), because oldest seems worried that there wasn't fair punishment enough and you want to take that into consideration, but since both are at fault, both will receive a punishment.
On one hand, you want to acknowledge your oldest's concern about taking sides. But you don't want this tattling on what happened on dad's watch constantly happening. I think after this episode, both girls will realize that it is not in their best interest to carry-over their fights. I might also bring in the legal view on car crashes (since they are getting to be that age), that it is never entirely one person's fault and the courts adjust their verdicts to that fact.
i gather from this that the oldest is 18? if so, she is an adult. may i suggest that you need to be out of the business of punishing or disciplining an adult altogether. and she needs to get out of the business of dictating your parenting.
i think a conversation needs to be had with the eldest that, a) she's a grown-up now and as such, is expected to act like one; b) her younger sister is still a child--adults and children are held to different standards; c) if she cannot stop instigating fights with her sister like she is still a child herself, it will be time for some tough love that may include giving her an opportunity to truly be an adult (i.e., she doesn't live in your house).
and then look into something more than just counseling for the youngest. having dealt with a kid who had psychological challenges, it is REALLY hard to see how serious a situation is when you're in it. i'd suggest a complete evaluation of the youngest with a pediatric psychologist (not just an hour-long talk, but a complete work-up). we had NO idea that our kid was dealing with some serious issues that were more than him just being difficult.
Last weekend, after a long day of step family entertainment at an amusement park, youngest left the bathroom door open a crack while using the toilet. Oldest entered to brush her teeth. Youngest asked for privacy, oldest refused to leave, They got into a fight, youngest smeared toothpaste in oldests hair, oldest pushed or hit her, youngest lashed back and scratched her sisters face.
Dad was in charge, and was unable to decide on a suitable punishment, settled for glaring and silent treatment towards Youngest. Oldest milked that scratch for all the sympathy she could get. Since it takes two to tango, I declined to punish either girl, since A) it didn't happen on my watch and I think punishment should be immediate or not at all and B) isn't the fight and the bad feelings enough? but we will have new ground rules for sharing the bathroom or not.
Now I'm in charge, and Oldest is furious with me for 'taking Youngest's side as usual' and failing to implement effective consequences. I have asked her before and asked her this time what she thinks would be appropriate. She has no ideas (That is my job, she says). I don't want this to be what she takes away from her first 18 years on the planet....that Mom always takes Youngest's side. I DO make accommodations for youngest's fragile emotional state. And I do want both of them to learn better impulse control.
So, this is where we are. I don't want any great thoughts on how I SHOULD have been disciplining all along. Let's start with this incident right here: If this were your kids, would you deal out 'punishment' for the bathroom scuffle, and if so, what would it be?
This is pretty clear cut - Oldest made a clear violation of someone's personal space. For that, she should be punished. She was an aggressor, and you dont appease aggressors. It reinforces bad behavior. Discipline needs to come down hard to teach the basics of common sense courtesy.
The Oldest is being a drama queen, and trying to manipulate you. Your response should be "No young lady, the person who is in the wrong gets punished - if you dont want to get punished, then change your behavior".
As for the physical fight per se..... The youngest actually made the mistake there. You're not allowed to attack someone who invades your personal space. You have a "duty to retreat, and seek out the authorities". This is true in the world of criminal law, as it is here. For that, she should be punished. She needs to learn the rules of behavior that govern the world i.e. 99% of the time, you are never justified in attacking someone, you should always retreat when possible.... only in extreme cases where you fear for your bodily safety can you attack.
So by that logic, the oldest also made the mistake of escalating the fight. She could have left the bathroom instead of continuing to fight.
They both need to learn impulse control, which is one of the most important behavioral traits that a person learns as they are growing up. I've seen studies on this - the ability to have the discipline to delay instant gratification is one of the most important factors that separates people who are successful in society vs people who go to prison, do drugs, etc.
As for specifics of punishment, i will leave that up to others to advise, as i do not have kids :-)
I'd tell the Oldest that they both acted horribly, that if the fight had happened in your house there would be absolutely exemplary punishment for both of them, but since it didn't it's not in your jurisdiction. And that if she doesn't like it, she should complain to Dad. If she continues to push you, punish her for that.
Last edited by djacques; 08-01-2014 at 03:11 AM..
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