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Old 12-28-2015, 09:20 AM
 
Location: here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsku View Post
We have little buttons on our taps here that you have to press while turning the mixer tap get the water hot, otherwise its just lukewarm. That stops kids accidentally scalding themselves (also meant I took lukewarm showers for several months after moving here before I realised what that button did!)
That's a good idea! I've never seen that.
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Old 12-28-2015, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Texas
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As a physician, I find this entire thread amusing.
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Old 12-28-2015, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Log "cabin" west of Bangor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
From what I'm reading, Legionnaire's grows in stagnant water 68-122F, and best at 90-105F, so keeping the water heater at 140 isn't necessary. I also wouldn't think that normal use would allow the water to stagnate long enough for it to grow much.
Although I have been aware of this info for years, I went straight to the NIH to confirm that the info was still current and valid.

As I mentioned, the reason for keeping the temperature that high, particularly on an electric water heater, is due to the design of the heater. A typical 40gal electric water heater will contain two heating elements, one a bit lower than the mid-point of the tank, and one nearer the top. (Some [smaller] tanks may contain only one heating element, near the middle of the tank.)

Heat rises, cool sinks (do I need to provide a physics lesson here?), the water at the bottom of the tank will be cooler than the water at the top, and less than the setpoint. It is the bottom area of the tank that provides the breeding ground for the bacteria if the temperature is not set sufficiently above the ideal reproduction range. In this case, the temperature needs to be set at 140* or higher in order to ensure that the bottom of the tank remains above the reproduction temperature. In high [hot] water usage situations it is even more important because the temperature of the water in the tank is more likely to remain below the setpoint. Additionally, the water supply and exit pipes are both at the top of the tank, which can leave the bottom of the tank less disturbed than you might think.

The reason why oil and gas heaters are less susceptible (actually, no cases found) is because these heaters heat from the bottom of the tank, and typically reach temperatures higher than the setpoint, thus achieving a satisfactory kill of any bacteria that might be present.

In the interest of completeness, included in the specifications for electric heaters to be unable to be set too low, are requirements that the system *also* include a method of ensuring that the temperature of water exiting the tap does not exceed 120*, in order to guard against scalding.

So, contrary to your assertion, it is necessary to set an electric heater higher in order to assure that the temperature of *all* the water in the tank remains above the reproduction range of the bacteria. If you wish to further contest the issue, you'll have to take it up with the NIH, the laws of physics, and the reality of actual cases and studies showing bacterial growth in electric water heaters.

And to be on-topic, there is no cure for the common cold, and according to an article I saw just a few days ago there likely never will be. All one can do is attempt to ease the discomfort of the symptoms...and *not* by sticking a kid's face in a vat of boiling water. (Are there really people dumb enough to do that? )
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Old 12-28-2015, 10:40 AM
 
Location: here
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zymer View Post
Although I have been aware of this info for years, I went straight to the NIH to confirm that the info was still current and valid.

As I mentioned, the reason for keeping the temperature that high, particularly on an electric water heater, is due to the design of the heater. A typical 40gal electric water heater will contain two heating elements, one a bit lower than the mid-point of the tank, and one nearer the top. (Some [smaller] tanks may contain only one heating element, near the middle of the tank.)

Heat rises, cool sinks (do I need to provide a physics lesson here?), the water at the bottom of the tank will be cooler than the water at the top, and less than the setpoint. It is the bottom area of the tank that provides the breeding ground for the bacteria if the temperature is not set sufficiently above the ideal reproduction range. In this case, the temperature needs to be set at 140* or higher in order to ensure that the bottom of the tank remains above the reproduction temperature. In high [hot] water usage situations it is even more important because the temperature of the water in the tank is more likely to remain below the setpoint. Additionally, the water supply and exit pipes are both at the top of the tank, which can leave the bottom of the tank less disturbed than you might think.

The reason why oil and gas heaters are less susceptible (actually, no cases found) is because these heaters heat from the bottom of the tank, and typically reach temperatures higher than the setpoint, thus achieving a satisfactory kill of any bacteria that might be present.

In the interest of completeness, included in the specifications for electric heaters to be unable to be set too low, are requirements that the system *also* include a method of ensuring that the temperature of water exiting the tap does not exceed 120*, in order to guard against scalding.

So, contrary to your assertion, it is necessary to set an electric heater higher in order to assure that the temperature of *all* the water in the tank remains above the reproduction range of the bacteria. If you wish to further contest the issue, you'll have to take it up with the NIH, the laws of physics, and the reality of actual cases and studies showing bacterial growth in electric water heaters.

And to be on-topic, there is no cure for the common cold, and according to an article I saw just a few days ago there likely never will be. All one can do is attempt to ease the discomfort of the symptoms...and *not* by sticking a kid's face in a vat of boiling water. (Are there really people dumb enough to do that? )
You sound like you know a lot about water heaters.

I don't think this is common knowledge or common practice. No pediatrician ever told me to keep my water heater at 140. On the contrary, it has always been suggested that the water heater be kept lower to prevent small children from getting burned. I also work in public health, and have never heard of this supposed "no brainer", nor have I ever heard of legionella being spread through a home water heater.

I just went and looked at our water heater, and the settings are "low" up to "very hot." There are no temperature readings at all, so I would have no way of knowing what temperature it is set on. I think your knowledge may have a place in certain settings like a hospital, but I don't think it applies at home.

http://lifehacker.com/whats-the-best...ter-1465372005

Minimum Temperature

According to the paper Legionella and the prevention of legionellosis, found at the World Health Organization website, temperature affects the survival of Legionella as follows:

Above 70 C (158 F): Legionella dies almost instantly
At 60 C (140 F): 90% die in 2 minutes
At 50 C (122 F): 90% die in 80–124 minutes, depending on strain
At 48 to 50 C (118 to 122 F): Can survive but do not multiply
32 to 42 C (90 to 108 F): Ideal growth range


Maximum Temperature

Setting too high can scald someone using the water. This is particularly easy because when you first open the tap, the water in the pipes has cooled down some, and so its temperature will raise (possibly dramatically) once the water from the tank reaches the point of use. Young children are at higher risk because their skin is thinner. Some people, especially the elderly, are at higher risk because they may be less sensitive and slower to move away from scalding water.The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) recommends setting to 49 C (120 F).


It goes on to suggest anti-scald devices on EACH tap. That isn't common anywhere that I've lived.

Last edited by Kibbiekat; 12-28-2015 at 10:57 AM..
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Old 12-28-2015, 05:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighFlyingBird View Post
I claimed very little helped with cough, besides narcotics which aren't given often. If there is swelling in the throat which causes the cough, it can help a little.

There are many causes of a cough. Very little helps with coughs. But if you can treat the cause of the cough (i.e. asthma, post nasal drip) you can help ease a cough. But again, not much helps with coughs.
Delsym works very well on coughs. It's OTC and lasts a long time. They say up to twelve hours, but I've never had it last longer than ten hours. http://www.delsym.com there are also generic brands that work just as well.
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Old 12-28-2015, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,776,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meyerland View Post
Delsym works very well on coughs. It's OTC and lasts a long time. They say up to twelve hours, but I've never had it last longer than ten hours. Cough Medicine, 12-Hour Cough Syrup | Delsym there are also generic brands that work just as well.
It's good, but not recommended for kids under 4. Kid Care: Dextromethorphan (Cough Suppressant) Dose Chart for Children | St. Louis Children's Hospital This is an FDA recommendation.
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Old 12-31-2015, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,482 posts, read 26,078,274 times
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This may help resolve the hot water temperature inconsistency. From OSHA:

https://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/legionnaires/faq.html

"Maintain domestic water heaters at 60C (140F). The temperature of the water should be 50C (122F) or higher at the faucet."

"Q. Do you recommend that I operate my home water heater at 60C (140F)?

A. Probably not if you have small children or infirm elderly persons who could be at serious risk of being scalded by the hot water. However, if you have people living with you who are at high risk of contracting the disease, then operating the water heater at a minimum temperature of 60C (140F) is probably a good idea. Consider installing a scald-prevention device."

So it's 140F at the tank, and 122F at the faucet.
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