What really gets me is when people say that women who don't want kids are "selfish". (orphaned, son)

[jillz]

Originally Posted by bibit612

I know this may be a little off-topic, but is this a new word "child-free"? How is it different from "child-less"? Does the word child-free connote the state being one by choice? I just realized that words with "free" in it that come to my mind somehow relates to something negative...fat-free, salt-free, cancer-free, etc. somehow implying that the "child" part is uh bad? Not trying to add anymore controversy on this thread...just really curious.

ChildLESS gives the impression we are missing something and that there is no child because we couldn't have them.

ChildFREE means that we don't want them and made the choice not to have them

Someone who clearly doesn't want children and is never going to have them is childfree. Someone that doesn't have kids yet or cannot but feels the loss is childless.

Nothing wrong with asking the question since childfree is a relatively new term.

J

[silverwing]

Originally Posted by KristyLiz

Yikes - why so defensive?

It's not defensive when you are rolling your eyes as you type

Let me tell you, if I had no kids, the last place I'd want to hang out is a parenting board!

Some of us CFs give them a pass over as we see that there are some people who are questioning the choice to have kids. Those are relevant threads, especially in light of a couple of posters who are clearly torn over being in the position of not wanting kids themselves but have mates who do. Maybe it would be better (and I hope they have done the search or been PM'd with links) if they also do a search for childfree boards. They haven't received as candid a view of CF life on this forum (with the exception of a few particularly well-spoken CF people) as they would if they were to talk about their problems on a strictly CF board.

I do say, though, that the poster's suggestion that a CF board be created here brought about some pretty bad flashbacks of boards I hung out on that were supposed to be for childfrees. One of the most infamous was the AOL CF board. Parents were allowed to post (someone had the disingenuous idea that it could be a "bridge building" place), it was also moderated by a parent, yet was supposed to be a <paraphasing> "CF gathering place. a spot where childfree issues could be discussed and CFs could vent about not wanting kids in a world where they are surrounded by them". It quickly devolved into a puddle. It became a place dripping with fatuousness, for one (I can probably count on one hand, with four fingers left over, the number of CFs who enjoy listening to parents blather on about how awesome their kids are and how having a child opens you to a greater love than they've ever known). And our rants about outings spoiled by ill-behaved children were agreed upon: "oh, I agree! I hate it when we go out and there are noisy kids around!", but then yabbutted: "but we never let our kids do that. we take them out as soon as they become noisy." If a CF responded with, basically, a ****: "you know, I just want a chance to rant. I don't want to hear how wonderful a parent you are", then the mod would step in and side with the parent. I can see the very same thing happening here Last I heard, the AOL board was pretty much abandoned by the CFs.

Hey, live and let live, just don't go bashing others' choices.

When your choice impacts my life in a negative fashion, then I am perfectly within my rights to bash, both volubly and with a lot of words I don't use in otherwise civilized conversation. That's why there are CF boards where parents aren't allowed to post and are discouraged from even lurking. It isn't prevalent today as much as it was in decades past, but ~30 years ago, when I entered the workforce, people w/o kids were SOL as far as equal and decent treatment. Since it was considered the default that people married and had kids, those of us who didn't were expected to totally pick up the slack and sacrifice for those who did. We were told that our turn would come later, when we had kids, for first dibs on holidays off and the good weeks for vacation. The founding of the CF newsgroup back in the early 90s opened a whole world for us. It also gave us the support of knowing we weren't alone and that there would be other voices to back us up when we finally spoke up in the workplaces and the outside world "Hey! we won't ever be having kids. You can think that's weird or wrong, tough s*. We want to be treated more fairly. And we also intend to speak up when your kids ruin unique and special occasions for us, all because you won't make them behave."

That parent-barred CF boards are still useful, despite the gains we've made, are because we still need a place to vent - and yes, BASH - the drinking game responses we get when we complain about the childed:
*if you don't like the way my kids behave in public, stay home
*you were a child once
*what if your parents had decided to be childfree?
*ad nauseum

A childfree/childless board certainly wouldn't be appropriate to the Parenting board - I wouldn't even encourage it on any forum of this site. Maybe some sort of "Deciding to have kids - Yes/No" sub-forum, where CFs can speak about the positives they experience in their choice (or orientation as some of us view it). But if the childed are then allowed to rhapsodize how WONDERFUL! it is to have kids, those of us who don't should be allowed equal time to say why we don't think it so. Those who are in the conundrum of finding it hard to decide can then see there are people out there who understand their ambivalence to having kids.

[brightdoglover]

"I am childfree at the moment, married almost 8 years, and we think that we may try to have a child some day before I am 40. Categorize me anyway you want."

A semantic point- "Childfree" means never had them, never will, don't wanna. It doesn't mean currently without children (as in pre-parent, or empty nest, or having lost them through tragedy, etc.). "Childfree" has always struck me as a clunky politically correct word, but it is accurate, and there's no other word I can think of that covers the situation correctly. Over time, it's sounded less clunky to me, as I've gotten used to it. "Childless" always sounded incorrect- the norm being "childed" and me being "-less." Actually, "childless by choice" works, but is even clunkier.

I agree with those who say that some CF outlook is appropriate on a parenting forum, IF the subject is whether or not to have kids, how do you know if you want them, etc. I do read those threads because I am curious what people are thinking and saying about those things. I have no desire to be rude and be on a parenting forum as a vocal CF, and will go back to reading if it is in fact rude.

[anifani821]

Originally Posted by bibit612

I know this may be a little off-topic, but is this a new word "child-free"? How is it different from "child-less"? Does the word child-free connote the state being one by choice? I just realized that words with "free" in it that come to my mind somehow relates to something negative...fat-free, salt-free, cancer-free, etc. somehow implying that the "child" part is uh bad? Not trying to add anymore controversy on this thread...just really curious.

HA HA HA. Bibit, I was thinking exactly the same thing! It is just a phrase that someone came up with that seems politically correct - and implies a decision. Childless may indicate that a couple wants children, but for whatever reason, have not been able to procreate. It implies a deficit - "less" - and a loss.

Child-free implies - a decision. We decided to be free of the encumbrances of parenthood.

I think that anyone who does not want children should not have them. It is a lot more responsible not to bring a child into this world if they are not going to be given the benefit of engaged parents. However, I suspect that for eons, parents have been giving birth to children they did not plan and in many cases, didn't even really want. Sad but true.

As for calling women who don't have children "selfish," - I think the word is misused. Perhaps the better description is "self-involved." The actual meaning of the word selfish is withholding and people misuse the word all the time.

I do think that people who don't want children are often self-involved, and wise enuff to realize that they do not want to re-focus their energies on another human being. Is there something wrong w/ that? Well, it would be really inane for a self-involved person to have responsibilities he/she does not want.

I think it is outrageous to judge another person b/c he/she has no children, and none of my business as well. A person should not have to justify the reason he/she does not have children - whether b/c of a biological reason or a personal preference.

My sister and her H chose not to have children and I am glad they didn't. They are self-involved - they have their own pursuits and a child would not have fit into their very self-contained little world and they would have resented the energy they would have had to spend raising a child. I was sincerely thrilled that they didn't want children. I could only imagine the horrible life that child would have lived as he/she would have been expected to fit into a construct that would have been totally unrealistic for any human being. My sister has absolutely no patience whatsoever. She has never babysat for her nieces and nephews and there is a reason why. First of all, she had no interest in it, and secondly, we, her sisters, would never have trusted her w/ our children.

So . . . judging anyone for deciding to have 6 children . . . or for deciding to have no children . . . is a worthless activity. People should do what feels right to them.

But as for selfish - not the right word. Perhaps self-involved. But in the end, it is none of my business. I have children, but if I didn't and someone asked me about it - I would respond w/ something like "That is a subject I just don't discuss - I am sure you can understand." And move on to some other topic.

[mommiewrites]

Originally Posted by anifani821

People should do what feels right to them.

sums it up nicely...live and let live.

[kwflconch]

Originally Posted by Secret Samadhi

ITA with you. I'm still trying to figure out how one could be selfish in regards to a non-existent being. I guess some may feel that child-free people are selfish for not contributing to populating the world?

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the Earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the Earth"
(Genesis 1:27-28).

[mrs1885]

Originally Posted by monkeygorilla

I think in some cases, its more selfish to have a child if you/ your partner are not ready yet. And some people never will be. I think its very mature to recognize that a child might not be ready for you, rather than to have one because of family/peer pressure. How is making that choice selfish?

I was out to dinner with some friends and they were going on & on about how selfish women are who chose to not have children. It made me really angry...

By the way, I just found this found this forum today & am so excited I did!!

I could not agree more. Honestly, I have 5 kids. I love them to death, but parenting wasn't at all what I'd envisioned. Had I really known how hard it was, I never ever would have had kids. I haven't taken it out on them by any means and I think I've done a pretty good job at raising them. But I've also been very honest with them. They know how much it costs to have kids - I sit them down with me with my checkbook and paycheck. They know how expensive life alone is, let alone trying to feed, clothe, house, and educate children. They know how stressful parenting is - I talk quite openly with them about it.

Children are wonderful. My kids have all decided they want children some day. But they also know they need to make sure they have a very secure marriage as parenting is a strain on marriage. They know how expensive it is so they know they need to make sure there is plenty money in the bank, they have a home, vehicle, etc.

If they change their minds and decide to not have kids later on, I'd totally support that decision. You can love children and still not have them. There's nothing wrong with that. Raising kids is tough and not at all the glamorous all encompassing time it's shown to be on TV. Leave it to Beaver is a total lie!! LOL!!

[tkdmom]

It seems pretty simple to me. If you don't want kids don't have any. And who cares what anyone says about it, it's your choice. You have the perogative to change your mind later on.

[lemon&lime]

I have been going through this a lot in the last couple of years. First my sister, who never wanted kids and waited till she was 31, got pregnant. Then I made an unfortunate move to Salt Lake City, a place that is predominantly Mormon where a high percentage of the people have children as part of their religious beliefs and are very "family oriented". Initially I felt left out that my sister was going to have a kid but then got over it and have recently felt really nothing about either of her kids (other than a casual interest) or the fact that she's had them. I have experienced some mild discrimination in Utah and have had to limit the amount of time I spend in certain areas of town because I am "selfish" and don't have kids which in the Mormon religion is the equivalent of having failed the "heavenly father's" plan and I get the feeling could even earn me a one way ticket to hell. Though I am not jealous of the fact that my sister had kids I feel she is a little more "adult" than I am, something that has been an issue between us our whole lives and now seems to have been intensified. No one has come right out and said what a selfish person I am but I do kind of feel it and it bothers me because I have no interest in having a biological child and am tired of hearing about all the celebrities kids and living around the Mormons who live only to breed.

Originally Posted by monkeygorilla

I think in some cases, its more selfish to have a child if you/ your partner are not ready yet. And some people never will be. I think its very mature to recognize that a child might not be ready for you, rather than to have one because of family/peer pressure. How is making that choice selfish?

I was out to dinner with some friends and they were going on & on about how selfish women are who chose to not have children. It made me really angry...

By the way, I just found this found this forum today & am so excited I did!!

[lemon&lime]

Well it really makes me wonder about Angelina and Brad, who have been heavily celebrated in the media for their selflessness in regards child-centric life they've created together. Angelina is pregnant with twins which I think is neat but really, I can't take another couple of years of hearing about the Brangie pack. It should not make me feel selfish but it does. Though I believe they are doing a lot of good by creating such an interesting family I am not interested in hearing about it all the time.

Originally Posted by redpanda

Totally agree with you, monkeygorilla! That attitude is one that makes me laugh out loud quite regularly. Let's face it, WANTING children is the ultimate in selfishness.