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Old 02-19-2016, 08:00 AM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,239,684 times
Reputation: 14654

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Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
There's a lot of truth in this. I know I'm guilty of being particular about certain chores. So I do those chores, and I don't complain that no one helps with those. That's my issue completely, not a lack of support. Those posters earlier in the thread commenting that husband's didn't remember stuff without help or just inherently "know" things. Well most likely that's at least partially because it wasn't their job to do it. They were "helping" . If it became their job, I'd venture to guess they'd remember it. Somehow they manage to function at work.
It took me a while to realize that he "knows" different things than I do. And what I think I "know" he does not care about. And That Is Ok.

Quote:
The article in the OP was not a typical family. I know not one person who went back to work one day after giving birth. Who wouldn't have changed their pants. The author, if I recall, was not only the prime income earner but also responsible for keeping her husband's business afloat. Right after giving birth. She had a lot going on. Not typical.
Not what I would CHOOSE.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:13 AM
 
15,203 posts, read 16,061,842 times
Reputation: 25127
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasel View Post
1. The "women have choices!" thing is a myth in certain female circles. In my experience, women who work f/t often look down at women who don't work outside the home with disdain. I have this "argument" with one of my best friends all the time. She says "She's not contributing" -- referring to a woman, either a mother or a non mother, who doesn't have an outside paying job. My response is that it depends on one's definition of "contributing." If you're raising kids, you're DEFINITELY contributing -- more so than if you were working in some corporation that really doesn't add value to the world. Do we REALLY need coca-cola?

2) Women my age grew up right in the crease between the SAHM era and the working mother era. We grew up mostly with moms who either stayed home or had part-time jobs. Those of us who had good childhoods in this era naturally pictured ourselves having successful marriages and raising children. Then, as we got into college, the "career" thing was drilled into us. So we started focusing on careers, and having fun. SAHMotherhood was considered "beneath" our educational abilities. "We have plenty of time and options to be moms later!" we thought. This was all fine and good until these women suddenly found themselves at about age 38, wanting kids, wanting that 1970s family life they grew up with, but too afraid to give up the ego gratification, their place on the career track, and the money that comes with upward career mobility. And often still searching for a responsible marriage-minded mate anyway.

My point is that there are a lot of 40-ish women who are unhappy today, despite the "choices" touted by the feminist movement. I know these women. I have been in lengthy conversations with them. They are either exhausted and stressed out from burning the candle at both ends --trying to juggle a career, raising kids and running a home -- or they realize they let the biological train pass them by because they "thought" they could put off having kids, and now they are facing infertility and/or a dearth of men willing to to pair up with a 40-year old woman of decreasing fertility. (Men who want kids usually go for younger women to get on that baby track.)

I know there are always exceptions. However, I am a product of the feminist era and I know a lot of women in my generation who feel like they were duped. Oh, and I hear a lot of the "burning candle at both ends" women incessantly complaining about their husbands not "doing enough." Men never said they "wanted it all, " did they?
I'm approximately your same age--54--and I understand what you're saying, although I don't agree with all of it. First, I don't hear women our age talking about being duped. I work full-time and most of my friends are working mothers. I've never heard a single one of them complain about trying to "have it all." They might talk about their houses being a mess, or that they wish their husbands did more, or that they're tired, but most of them are happy with the choices they've made. Maybe it's just something we all accept. As far as men never saying they wanted it all, if they have a wife who WOTH, they are buying into the notion that you can have a two-earner household and successfully raise children. So in a sense, they are participating in the "having it all" concept.

My mother worked part-time til I was in middle school and then went to work full time, but I cannot remember a time when I didn't want a career. I think by the time I was in kindergarten I wanted to be a veterinarian although my ideas of a career changed over time. I NEVER contemplated being a SAHM. Not as a child, not while in high school or college and not when I got pregnant in my 30's. It didn't appeal to me for several reasons, but it was not something that I just started thinking of in college.

I do not look down on SAHP's at all. I believe they contribute in many ways to a happy household for the children and adults in the house. If a family can afford it and a parent wants to stay home--great. The only reason I waded into this discussion was to respond to very pointed comments that children suffer when both parents WOTH and that a woman who chooses to WOTH is selfish and materialistic.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Denver area
21,144 posts, read 22,130,514 times
Reputation: 35582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I do not look down on SAHP's at all. I believe they contribute in many ways to a happy household for the children and adults in the house. If a family can afford it and a parent wants to stay home--great. The only reason I waded into this discussion was to respond to very pointed comments that children suffer when both parents WOTH and that a woman who chooses to WOTH is selfish and materialistic.
Yep
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:18 AM
 
Location: The Jar
20,071 posts, read 13,763,554 times
Reputation: 36712
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
This is steaming poo. Service is not what is required of parenting. And notice I mentioned PARENTING, not mothering.

???

Have you looked up the many definitions of the word?

It's obvious you have not.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:19 AM
 
15,203 posts, read 16,061,842 times
Reputation: 25127
Quote:
Originally Posted by maciesmom View Post
There's a lot of truth in this. I know I'm guilty of being particular about certain chores. So I do those chores, and I don't complain that no one helps with those. That's my issue completely, not a lack of support. Those posters earlier in the thread commenting that husband's didn't remember stuff without help or just inherently "know" things. Well most likely that's at least partially because it wasn't their job to do it. They were "helping" . If it became their job, I'd venture to guess they'd remember it. Somehow they manage to function at work.

The article in the OP was not a typical family. I know not one person who went back to work one day after giving birth. Who wouldn't have changed their pants. The author, if I recall, was not only the prime income earner but also responsible for keeping her husband's business afloat. Right after giving birth. She had a lot going on. Not typical.
I learned when my daughter was young that if my husband took on a task, to let him do it however he wanted. When she was young, like 4 to 9 or so, he used to take her shopping for clothes and shoes. They came home with things I never would have chosen, but so what? He's a parent and can do parental things.

Agree about the woman in the article not being a typical family. She said a couple of times in the article that no one knew she was pregnant, presumably because she works from home. I thought that was especially odd. I don't know of anyone who has hidden a pregnancy in order to further her career. Her life would have been much better if she had announced her pregnancy and told everyone she'd be gone for a few weeks and then shut her computer down.

And I also didn't get staying in the peed-in pants and the bag of dirty diapers in the bedroom. It would have taken less than a minute to fix either of those problems. Much less time than it took her to write the article.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:32 AM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,191,044 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by picklejuice View Post
​"No greater love has no woman than this, than to lay down her life in service to/for her kids."

The author of the article needs to quit her outside job and concentrate on what truly matters and is important: human beings/kids. So, she'll have to sacrifice even more? Yeah. That's sort of the thing about the "choice" to have children.

In today's world of easy contraception, few are forced to have offspring they don't want. The problem is that most want to have offspring easy to raise, completely supported for all of their actions/decisions, and still live like they are single and unattached. Good luck with that!
So moms are supposed to give up their profession but dads aren't? Why?
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:39 AM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,239,684 times
Reputation: 14654
Quote:
Originally Posted by picklejuice View Post
???

Have you looked up the many definitions of the word?

It's obvious you have not.
Um? I am aware of the meanings of the word.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:42 AM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 35,007,171 times
Reputation: 42372
Quote:
Originally Posted by picklejuice View Post
​"No greater love has no woman than this, than to lay down her life in service to/for her kids."

The author of the article needs to quit her outside job and concentrate on what truly matters and is important: human beings/kids. So, she'll have to sacrifice even more? Yeah. That's sort of the thing about the "choice" to have children.

In today's world of easy contraception, few are forced to have offspring they don't want. The problem is that most want to have offspring easy to raise, completely supported for all of their actions/decisions, and still live like they are single and unattached. Good luck with that!
Her husband also has this choice. He can also take the dirty diapers out, presumably.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:42 AM
 
10,415 posts, read 7,495,645 times
Reputation: 18366
No matter where you are in life there will be some people who love it and some people who hate it.

Some days just about everything sucks.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:44 AM
 
15,762 posts, read 13,191,044 times
Reputation: 19651
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasel View Post
I only bothered reading about 1/2 of the posts because frankly it became a series of people being very defensive about their choices. Here's my perspective as a 50-year old woman who made a conscious decision to NOT have kids -- not because I didn't want them but because of circumstances.

1. The "women have choices!" thing is a myth in certain female circles. In my experience, women who work f/t often look down at women who don't work outside the home with disdain. I have this "argument" with one of my best friends all the time. She says "She's not contributing" -- referring to a woman, either a mother or a non mother, who doesn't have an outside paying job. My response is that it depends on one's definition of "contributing." If you're raising kids, you're DEFINITELY contributing -- more so than if you were working in some corporation that really doesn't add value to the world. Do we REALLY need coca-cola?

If you don't have kids, you might be contributing in other ways. I have a f/t job but it's my own company and sometimes I have lulls in work. This past week I have spent a ton of time doing things for our household that will 1) ultimately save us money (because I did them myself rather than hiring out) 2) ease the task burden on my husband, who has a stressful job for an employer and has less flexibility in the workday, and 3) allow us to spend time on relaxation and fun things over the weekend as a couple instead of doing those errands and projects.

I am a MUCH healthier (eating, fitness and mental-wise) and PLEASANT partner to my spouse when I am not juggling the demands of clients as well as the demands of routine life (and aging/terminally ill parents.)

2) Women my age grew up right in the crease between the SAHM era and the working mother era. We grew up mostly with moms who either stayed home or had part-time jobs. Those of us who had good childhoods in this era naturally pictured ourselves having successful marriages and raising children. Then, as we got into college, the "career" thing was drilled into us. So we started focusing on careers, and having fun. SAHMotherhood was considered "beneath" our educational abilities. "We have plenty of time and options to be moms later!" we thought. This was all fine and good until these women suddenly found themselves at about age 38, wanting kids, wanting that 1970s family life they grew up with, but too afraid to give up the ego gratification, their place on the career track, and the money that comes with upward career mobility. And often still searching for a responsible marriage-minded mate anyway.

My point is that there are a lot of 40-ish women who are unhappy today, despite the "choices" touted by the feminist movement. I know these women. I have been in lengthy conversations with them. They are either exhausted and stressed out from burning the candle at both ends --trying to juggle a career, raising kids and running a home -- or they realize they let the biological train pass them by because they "thought" they could put off having kids, and now they are facing infertility and/or a dearth of men willing to to pair up with a 40-year old woman of decreasing fertility. (Men who want kids usually go for younger women to get on that baby track.)

I know there are always exceptions. However, I am a product of the feminist era and I know a lot of women in my generation who feel like they were duped. Oh, and I hear a lot of the "burning candle at both ends" women incessantly complaining about their husbands not "doing enough." Men never said they "wanted it all, " did they?
You are conflating "wanting it all" with "doing your share". And I know many, many men of my generation who are down right determined to be better fathers than theirs. That same idyllic SAHM, 50s mentality also had Dad coming home at 6pm to a scotch and barely interacting with the kids besides giving them a pat on the head and a kiss goodnight. So, no many men WANT to parent, actively. If they already have careers, and want more of a share of parenting, that would be "wanting it all" by the standard women are held to.

All couples should discuss their expectations with regards to careers, parenting, housework etc. well before marriage. Reality is women do more than their fair share when it comes to many of the household chores, even when they work and parent the same number of hours as their spouse. I tend to take a longer view on that, and realize any work done around the house is plus, and not to sweat the fact that for no apparent reason he cannot, EVER, clean out the drain basket when he loads the dishwasher. It is practically invisible. OTOH, I try to remember that is small potatoes, even when it is literally small potatoes in there. Anyway I digress.

Maybe it is become I have a STEM career (as do my friends), maybe it is because my friends are a bit younger, but I don't know any of them who are unhappy with their careers, especially once the kiddos are in school. We all (including most of the hubs) have jobs whose times are flexible or mesh well with the kiddos. I wasn't "duped" I know no one who feels that way, and have never seen anything beyond anecdotes trying to pretend it is a widespread phenomenon.
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