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Old 02-19-2016, 04:39 PM
 
Location: here
24,472 posts, read 28,750,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasel View Post
You're not the first woman I've heard say this. And if I'm honest with myself, I'm not sure I would be a person that "instantly bonds" either.

A woman wrote a book a while back about how people aren't honest about what it's really like to have kids. I can't remember the title-- it was something along the lines of "What mothers won't admit" or something like that. The point of the book was that she was shocked at how ambivalent she felt about her first kid and how she felt like she was an awful person because of it, until other mothers told her they didn't feel like the experience was a Snuggies commercial either.
I wasn't an instant bonder either.
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Old 02-19-2016, 05:22 PM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
27,266 posts, read 15,053,470 times
Reputation: 20866
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Really? MOST of their time? Even assuming each parents works the exact same 9-5 office job, with a half hour commute, the child would still spend most of their time with their parents. Once you get to school age, the overlap between school and most jobs accounts for some 7-8 hours a day. So again, "MOST" is not really accurate.

But that is the extreme, flex time, working from home, etc. are all becoming more and more the norm.

I don't know any families with both working parents who don't incorporate some sort of non-traditional hours into their parenting plan.

Over 1/3 of all salaried workers have flexible time schedules. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2007/12/art1full.pdf
And in managerial positions, it was 44% for men (as opposed to 32% for women, but that would be another thread). Flexible schedules are reality and becoming more so all the time.



So you think a single essay from the NYT with a single reference and a broken link to a single study disproves a peer reviewed meta-analysis of over 60 studies? Really?



So if the studies agree with your point you want to use them as evidence, and when they don't you want to use common sense. Again, really? That isn't rational or even logical.

By what measure is working a 40 hour week equate to "very little time"? Isn't it common sense that there are 168 hours a week, and we and our kids are awake for 120 or so of them? By what measure is 2/3 of our waking hours "very little time"?

Look, I have clearly supported the claim that it is POSSIBLE to have two working parents and not have the kids suffer. Anything else is semantics, you clearly want to paint families with two working parents as selfish, money grubbers, who only see their children for "very little time" but that is not by any means universal nor even the most common scenario. You tried to incorporate science, when the science supported the advantages for many kids to have two working parents, you suddenly appealed to common sense. You cannot support your claim, and your hyperbolic rhetoric does nothing to prove your case. End of story.
Srsly. I apologize to NO ONE for my career. I did have a ton of flexibility and worked from home at least four years with some travel.

Ask my son today if he's glad I worked so he can go to the college of his dreams and not graduate with a ton of debt.

He tells me today I'm one of the most interesting women he knows. I often took him with me on ride-alongs when I could.

He just made the Deans list with a 4.0 and we actually enjoy each other's company.

So, yeah; I did one hell of a job - career and all. Anyone that wants to cram that selfish label on me can suck it.

No offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I love how in this thread almost everyone is telling the father to move out of state so he can better financially support his daughter: Am i wrong for relocation out of state, without my child.

But for some people, if a woman dares to leave home to work from 8 to 5 to support her child she's being neglectful.
Word!

Quote:
Originally Posted by latetotheparty View Post
Jeebus..... seeing all this sparring about SAHM vs WOTH makes me glad all over again that all of my kids have fur.....

I had heard of the "mommy wars," but never actually seen it in action.....


PS... PLEASE don't take this as an indictment of those of you who chose to have children.... It is NOT and I would hate for it to be misconstrued as such!!
Isn't it pure crazy?? By the way, I never would have made it with my two fighting dogs if it weren't for your good advice!
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Old 02-19-2016, 05:23 PM
 
2,540 posts, read 3,304,624 times
Reputation: 5542
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post

6. I am just going to say it. I didn't bond with my daughter the day she was born. The first day I slept off my pain meds, took a bunch of pictures, dealt with visits from too many relatives, and didn't have any of the reality of her as person set in until the weeks and months to follow. And the kicker is, my daughter slept for almost two days herself. Just because you bonded in the first day does not mean everyone does and also does not mean that people who bonded later did anything less than perfect.
I didn't say everyone bonds with their baby at first sight.
I said those first days, weeks, months even, as long as you can afford, should be *spent* bonding with the baby. Through contact, holding, feeding, caretaking. That IS part of how you bond with your child, and much more importantly, how the baby bonds with you. Read about the attachment theory and the "fourth trimester', the idea being that the first three months are the crucial attachment period for a newborn, though i understand not everyone can afford to take that much. Most credible literature on the topic will basically tell you the same thing: the best thing for mother and baby after birth is to spend as much time physically together as possible, rest, try to put aside as many other chores as you can, just nurse, hold, sleep, repeat. This period is tough enough when that is all you do - and it must be next to impossible to be fully engaged in that process if you're simultaneously juggling conference calls. Call me sexist, or old fashioned, or out of touch with reality, but personally I believe there is a very primitive, primal element of a newborn's connection with their mother, over any other caregiver - it's her smell, voice, feel that they know. They may not 'remember' it when they're older, but I know that my youngest, for instance, spent the first two months of his life basically living on me. I couldn't hand him off to dad, he'd start screaming his head off. It's silly to say they don't know or care at that age - they do. Now that he's 7 months it's no longer an issue. But those first weeks, he needed me, not anyone else.
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:25 PM
 
10,090 posts, read 6,500,984 times
Reputation: 23714
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie View Post
I didn't say everyone bonds with their baby at first sight.
I said those first days, weeks, months even, as long as you can afford, should be *spent* bonding with the baby. Through contact, holding, feeding, caretaking. That IS part of how you bond with your child, and much more importantly, how the baby bonds with you. Read about the attachment theory and the "fourth trimester', the idea being that the first three months are the crucial attachment period for a newborn, though i understand not everyone can afford to take that much. Most credible literature on the topic will basically tell you the same thing: the best thing for mother and baby after birth is to spend as much time physically together as possible, rest, try to put aside as many other chores as you can, just nurse, hold, sleep, repeat. This period is tough enough when that is all you do - and it must be next to impossible to be fully engaged in that process if you're simultaneously juggling conference calls. Call me sexist, or old fashioned, or out of touch with reality, but personally I believe there is a very primitive, primal element of a newborn's connection with their mother, over any other caregiver - it's her smell, voice, feel that they know. They may not 'remember' it when they're older, but I know that my youngest, for instance, spent the first two months of his life basically living on me. I couldn't hand him off to dad, he'd start screaming his head off. It's silly to say they don't know or care at that age - they do. Now that he's 7 months it's no longer an issue. But those first weeks, he needed me, not anyone else.
It is being understood now that adoption trauma happens in babies who are adopted at birth also (not all children experience it, before people have a hissy fit). Attachment issues can arise from problems in the first few months of life. For a long time people thought if the adoption happened before the child could remember it, then it wouldn't affect them. Later it was said it was only trauma between ages of 6 months and 3 years. And they raised adopted kids with those expectations. Luckily we know better now and that a newborn infant isn't just a lump of cells. They have needs far beyond just being fed and changed.. We also know maternal depression, extended time in the NICU, family disruptions, etc can cause attachment issues in the first months of life. Even high needs infants (colic, etc) can have attachment issues because they aren't able to bond with their parent because of their discomfort. Insecurely attached adults often have insecurely attached children...it gets passed on. I am really against blaming parents for attachment problems. Most parents are doing the best they can at a challenging time in life (having an infant!).

I am talking specifically about insecure attachment, not the severe RAD. Attachment problems often look like ADHD, depression, anxiety, shyness, cognitive and behavioral issues in children. They contribute to relationship problems as adults, depression, anxiety, impulsive behavior, etc.

Understanding Ambivalent/Anxious Attachment
Insecure Attachment, Dysfunctional Attitudes, and Low Self-Esteem Predicting Prospective Symptoms of Depression and Anxiety During Adolescence
http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/att...line/karen.pdf
relationship and emotional trauma: an on-line video for helping children heal
Mary Ainsworth | Attachment Styles | Simply Psychology
Attachment Disorder, Attachment Therapy - What is Attachment Disorder?

Just google "insecure attachment"...there is massive info out there.

ETA I am responding to one line in evil cookie's post, not anything else. Not saying working mom's are going to have attachment problem children. Just having a conversation and sharing thoughts and info based on a line/topic in the quoted thread.
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Old 02-19-2016, 06:36 PM
 
Location: The Hall of Justice
25,907 posts, read 34,995,988 times
Reputation: 42372
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie View Post
I didn't say everyone bonds with their baby at first sight.
I said those first days, weeks, months even, as long as you can afford, should be *spent* bonding with the baby. Through contact, holding, feeding, caretaking. That IS part of how you bond with your child, and much more importantly, how the baby bonds with you. Read about the attachment theory and the "fourth trimester', the idea being that the first three months are the crucial attachment period for a newborn, though i understand not everyone can afford to take that much. Most credible literature on the topic will basically tell you the same thing: the best thing for mother and baby after birth is to spend as much time physically together as possible, rest, try to put aside as many other chores as you can, just nurse, hold, sleep, repeat. This period is tough enough when that is all you do - and it must be next to impossible to be fully engaged in that process if you're simultaneously juggling conference calls. Call me sexist, or old fashioned, or out of touch with reality, but personally I believe there is a very primitive, primal element of a newborn's connection with their mother, over any other caregiver - it's her smell, voice, feel that they know. They may not 'remember' it when they're older, but I know that my youngest, for instance, spent the first two months of his life basically living on me. I couldn't hand him off to dad, he'd start screaming his head off. It's silly to say they don't know or care at that age - they do. Now that he's 7 months it's no longer an issue. But those first weeks, he needed me, not anyone else.
The thread started with sainted grandmothers of yore plowing the fields and churning their own butter with six kids in tow, and now we're at sleeping and cuddling the baby for months at a time while everything else just stops. It's funny how these threads go.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:36 PM
 
Location: here
24,472 posts, read 28,750,429 times
Reputation: 31051
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJulia View Post
The thread started with sainted grandmothers of yore plowing the fields and churning their own butter with six kids in tow, and now we're at sleeping and cuddling the baby for months at a time while everything else just stops. It's funny how these threads go.
It is funny.

If there was a huge difference between being a SAHM and a working mom, we'd know it. It's not like all kids of working moms turn out to be criminals or all kids of SAHM's are successful ivy league grads. At the end of the day, it matters a lot more what you do with the time you have.
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Old 02-19-2016, 07:48 PM
 
Location: NJ
502 posts, read 678,516 times
Reputation: 467
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie View Post
I didn't say her employment is a luxury. I wasn't even talking about her choosing to work. I was basing my judgement on her returning to work one day after having had a baby, and then proceeding to complain how hard it is to 'have it all'. FWIW, the very phrase 'having it all', as well as the fact that she's writing up blog posts, sort of points to the fact that they're not likely to be a struggling family wearing themselves thin trying to put food on the table. She wouldn't be writing about trying to 'have it all' and worried about chipped polish if that was the case, she'd be too busy surviving. I'm assuming she is not self employed as she refers to conference calls, and I have not heard of employers who demand that a woman be back to work next day after giving birth, nor do I think it would even be legal. Therefore I'm inclined to think it was at least partly a choice on her behalf. I'm also judging the fact that it seems extremely short sighted to be having a child, a second child no less, without factoring in at least a month for the natural and necessary recuperation and bonding for mom and baby. Like I said, what would they have done if she ended up having to stay at the hospital?

I am sort of judging, and that's because what comes through to me, in her post (and sorry, by writing a public post she opens herself up to public opinion, so I don't apologize for having it), is that she expects popping out a baby to be something she does 'on the side', while not taking a second away from her 'main' life which includes career. To me that is a weird and distorted view. Having a baby is a major life-changing event. It's something to be planned carefully, and that includes proper recuperation, the way you would treat recovering from surgery - except more important because there's another human being involved! It should not be treated like going in to get your teeth cleaned. Those very first days should be spent resting, and bonding, and having a ton of physical contact with your newborn. She doesn't even seem to be worried about missing that while taking conference calls, she's concerned about chipped toenails.

Her situation is very different than a working mother who returns to work after maternity leave, having spent those first few weeks with her baby, and having arranged for quality childcare.
I love your post and felt the same way about her article. She complains an awful lot about first world problems like chipped polish on her toenails, and yet she's ok sitting in urine all day, wtf? I mean, if you couldn't put your phone on speaker muted long enough to change your panties and pants, then I guess yea, it's going to be tough to multitask well enough to "have it all". This blog just rambled all over the place.

There was a much better blog post or letter written a few months ago by a working mother to her daughter describing her guilt at not being there the way she wishes could be all the time for her baby but also having an intelligent discussion about how she realizes her career is important to provide for her daughter, both financially and emotionally. It was one of the better pieces I've read on work life balance of modern motherhood.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:01 PM
 
15,197 posts, read 16,054,147 times
Reputation: 25103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
I pretty much agree. Even if they need her income to keep her husband's business afloat, there had to be an extreme lack of planning for her not to be able to take a week or 2 or 6 off. Either that or she's thriving on the chaos, as some do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by no kudzu View Post
and I'm wondering how much of the article is even true. We all know about "poetic license". Maybe she thinks this story endears her to her readers but according to the responses in this thread...not so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
The author did say she popped a stitch, so she presumably had an episiotomy. Even if they were dirt poor and she didn't get sick pay or disability pay, with the smallest bit of planning, she could have taken a few days off. Maybe not 12 weeks or 6 weeks, but 1 or 2 weeks surely.
I wish the blogger had explained why she only took a day off after having her baby. Would they have missed a mortgage payment? How would her career have suffered if she'd taken 2 months? Saying "society" forced her to do that is too vague. If she's gonna put her story out there, a little more concrete info would be helpful
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:10 PM
 
Location: here
24,472 posts, read 28,750,429 times
Reputation: 31051
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlow View Post
I wish the blogger had explained why she only took a day off after having her baby. Would they have missed a mortgage payment? How would her career have suffered if she'd taken 2 months? Saying "society" forced her to do that is too vague. If she's gonna put her story out there, a little more concrete info would be helpful
I do too. I really am beginning to hate all of these bloggers who get tons of exposure for a so-so piece of writing. The internet allows anyone with a train of thought and a laptop to spout parenting advice as if they know any more than the rest of us. They don't.
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Old 02-19-2016, 08:33 PM
 
15,758 posts, read 13,184,034 times
Reputation: 19646
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilCookie View Post
I didn't say everyone bonds with their baby at first sight.
I said those first days, weeks, months even, as long as you can afford, should be *spent* bonding with the baby. Through contact, holding, feeding, caretaking. That IS part of how you bond with your child, and much more importantly, how the baby bonds with you. Read about the attachment theory and the "fourth trimester', the idea being that the first three months are the crucial attachment period for a newborn, though i understand not everyone can afford to take that much. Most credible literature on the topic will basically tell you the same thing: the best thing for mother and baby after birth is to spend as much time physically together as possible, rest, try to put aside as many other chores as you can, just nurse, hold, sleep, repeat. This period is tough enough when that is all you do - and it must be next to impossible to be fully engaged in that process if you're simultaneously juggling conference calls. Call me sexist, or old fashioned, or out of touch with reality, but personally I believe there is a very primitive, primal element of a newborn's connection with their mother, over any other caregiver - it's her smell, voice, feel that they know. They may not 'remember' it when they're older, but I know that my youngest, for instance, spent the first two months of his life basically living on me. I couldn't hand him off to dad, he'd start screaming his head off. It's silly to say they don't know or care at that age - they do. Now that he's 7 months it's no longer an issue. But those first weeks, he needed me, not anyone else.
People keep throwing around the "research" word in this thread and then not bothering to post the actual research.

And I call BS, adoptive parents, mothers who were seriously ill, even stay at home dads, all can bond with children outside the magical picture you paint of "good" moms doing nothing but holding their babies. Babies who, btw, sleep some 16 to 17 hours a day.

Fine, it is what you did. That does not make it any more or less correct than parents who did not do what you did. You are not the arbitrator of all that is correct in motherhood.
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