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Old 02-21-2016, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Texas
598 posts, read 475,608 times
Reputation: 1815

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
She agrees with me that if the husband is the one making most or all of the income, she wife should be doing most of the housework, or vice versa.
Wait. Are you saying that if both spouses work 40 hours and spouse A makes 4 times the amount of spouse B, then spouse B should do 4 times the amount of housework just based their respective salaries?

And you are saying your wife agrees with this? Does she agree with you hypothetically or is this the way that you live your life right now?

The only way that I think your scenario is fair is if spouse A works and spouse B doesn't work (i.e., no kids under 5 and no paid employment). Otherwise, who in the world besides you (and your wife) thinks like this?
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Texas
598 posts, read 475,608 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
I have experienced directly/indirectly. Therefore, by your definition, I'm on solid ground.

Using your logic outside of this matter, I can say you can't know what tastes good, sounds good, what's healthy for you to eat, etc because you never wore the hat of a real chef.....a real musician.....a real dietitian, etc.
.
Actually, that is not the correct logic. The correct logic would be you telling a chef how to prep his food, how to correctly handle ingredients, how to set his station, how to plate, etc. which would be ridiculous if you have never been a chef. I can guarantee you that a chef will not seriously consider cooking advice from someone just because he watches Top Chef and/or have been in a kitchen observing others cook.
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:18 PM
 
15,745 posts, read 13,176,204 times
Reputation: 19636
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
I have experienced directly/indirectly. Therefore, by your definition, I'm on solid ground.

Using your logic outside of this matter, I can say you can't know what tastes good, sounds good, what's healthy for you to eat, etc because you never wore the hat of a real chef.....a real musician.....a real dietitian, etc.

And yes, I observe/read a great deal of posts here in addition to posting.
And that is why research matters. But the research shows that there are real advantages to having both parents work.

Look, if you are going to play the anecdote game, rather than look at the actual research that is fine. But anecdotes about parenting from people who are actually parents, hold more weight than people who are not. Sure, everyone is welcome to their opinion, but not all opinions are as valuable to a discussion. One's like yours that are not based on fact, reason or even firsthand experience are particularly not valuable to a discussion of parents "having it all".
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:19 PM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,725,457 times
Reputation: 11008
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
That's not my point. This topic started because some posters seemed to imply, as you are perhaps doing, that those who aren't parents somehow have a less valid view than those with the title of parent. I believe this is false assumption as a whole as correct, there are good parents, bad parents, and in between parents. There's gray here. Therefore, having the title of parent/that experience doesn't necessarily mean that said parent is the best reference for advice. I'm not impressed by a title where many examples exists under said title of parent are less than shiny examples(ie abusive parents, druggies, selfish, alcoholics, etc). Nor should any of us trust a title so blindly. Seems common sense to me but perhaps some are more impressed by titles alone than I who feels the criteria of a title is all that's needed to dispense valid advice.

As for listening to other views/comprehending them, I have been but just disagree with some of them, as I'm sure you do in various life topics. My view is an infant/young child is best with a parent full time. Many others, perhaps yourself, think differently. I just simply disagree with some of the views as some out there disagree with mine.
I think it's not as black and white as that. Besides, you assign motivations to people in a very generalized way, and I beg to differ with your characterization of working parents as shallow materialistic persons as a whole.

And I know it's not that black and white precisely because (I mostly, but my spouse too - were home with our child full time). So while I probably would have agreed with you prior to having a child, now that I've had one and done exactly that, I'm not entirely sure my child would have not done better if we'd let her experience some more varied care giving scenarios while she was younger.

I'd say YMMV, but I don't know what your mileage actually is.
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Old 02-21-2016, 01:24 PM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,725,457 times
Reputation: 11008
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
And that is why research matters. But the research shows that there are real advantages to having both parents work.

Look, if you are going to play the anecdote game, rather than look at the actual research that is fine. But anecdotes about parenting from people who are actually parents, hold more weight than people who are not. Sure, everyone is welcome to their opinion, but not all opinions are as valuable to a discussion. One's like yours that are not based on fact, reason or even firsthand experience are particularly not valuable to a discussion of parents "having it all".
Agreed. And it's important to have that POV put forth, as it's become a theme in recent years that if you don't wear your baby 24 hours a day and breastfeed for 5 years, that you're going to traumatize your child for life. (I exaggerate for effect, but just barely). It's worth noting for working mothers who are tying themselves in knots with guilt that in my experience, that is not the case at all. In fact, I wish I'd done it a bit differently. Although my child is of course, a complete gem regardless of what I did or didn't do to ruin her for life.
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Old 02-21-2016, 02:05 PM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
27,255 posts, read 15,040,977 times
Reputation: 20860
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
I agree with your overall point. There are indeed differences of what works best for the mom and/or dad and as you stated clearly, what works best for THEIR career fields. No doubt. I get where you're coming from.

But in my view, the focus shouldn't be about the ideal schedule of the parent(s), work or play that works for them. The focus shouldn't be SAHM, WM, what works best for one's career, or non-working mothers/parent for that matter who are horrible parents yet are present, etc. The common thread in all of this again that I don't agree with is "Me", and what works best for "me"/my schedule, my career. "Me" is taken out of the sentence, and replaced with what works best for "my kid", especially a young infant/young kid who's not in full time school yet.

You see, I come from a different environment. My mom and the people within our family, one parent dropped THEIR career when it was time to have a kid(s) to spend full time with the child(s). Planning was done to prepare for this event, both mental and $ wise. A few material things might be off the purchase list to make this happen. The mentality shifted from what's best for MY schedule thinking to spending full time with an infant/young child and what's best for the kids was the end result. The goal.

Yes, this type of "mentality" doesn't work for everyone. It obviously doesn't work for many parents as the vast majority of people seem to have both parents(where they exist) work to various degrees, more than a few work many hours, don't see their kids often. This is a fact. Full time day care is so popular is the end result in many cases. I got that loud and clear. I am simply presenting my view on what worked out great and what I feel having a kid is about and what's best for a kid. If people get ruffled over this mindset, that's in their control, not mine.

As for "know-it-all posters", again, we are on CD and like myself, and are allowed to express our views on various topics. Now, if I go down the street, knock on someone's door, see someone in the grocery store, etc. and start spouting off my view on this topic? Sure, they have every right to say get lost, I'm "fed up with your view", etc. Why? Because that's not the forum, the proper venue, to share/express such ideas, express our views on something. CD is. I think some of you need to understand what CD is about and it's just not parroting views that a group or single person feels strongly about. It's about sharing different mindsets, often far different than our own. And just because someone like myself has a strong view on something doesn't mean one has to take my advice, believe it, or let alone read it. I'm putting out there what I believe as you are. Sharing different points of view. For myself, I look at it as educating myself on a different view and sometime I switch to a different side if someone makes a persuasive point on a topic. Other times, like on this topic, I can't get past the "me" thinking of many parents and what I have experienced around me over the years and I believe I never will. But that view shouldn't be offensive or get people worked up. It's my view as you have yours. And life goes on....another day on CD. I think there are bigger problems in life out there to get "fed up with" than other posters views on CD we disagree with strongly but if that's your approach to it all, that's your choice of course.



I know, imagine, people having different views on politics yet aren't politicians. People expressing views on food that aren't cooks. People who like/don't like certain cars yet aren't engineers in automotive design. Non-musicians who dislike/like certain types of music. What's the world coming to?
You are certainly entitled to your views ~ but in your scenario, one of us IS a politician; one of us IS an engineer and one of us is a musician. And the other is simply offering an opinion. As the musician, politician, and engineer (i.e. Parent), I will decide how valid that offering is.

And if you have never been there 'done that" then your opinion isn't worth all that much, IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
I see. So while you opine your theories as correct and immutable, you don't think it's worth taking in the experience of parents that are giving you opposing viewpoints, because, let's see - some parents are bad.

Or, I might add, parents here that are doing exactly as you lecture (with the caveat that in doing so we realize there is not one right answer). For some reason we aren't worth listening to either.
Yeah, that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayerdu View Post
Actually, that is not the correct logic. The correct logic would be you telling a chef how to prep his food, how to correctly handle ingredients, how to set his station, how to plate, etc. which would be ridiculous if you have never been a chef. I can guarantee you that a chef will not seriously consider cooking advice from someone just because he watches Top Chef and/or have been in a kitchen observing others cook.
Bingo!!!
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Old 02-21-2016, 05:58 PM
 
5,018 posts, read 4,557,075 times
Reputation: 3190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayerdu View Post
Wait. Are you saying that if both spouses work 40 hours and spouse A makes 4 times the amount of spouse B, then spouse B should do 4 times the amount of housework just based their respective salaries?

And you are saying your wife agrees with this? Does she agree with you hypothetically or is this the way that you live your life right now?

The only way that I think your scenario is fair is if spouse A works and spouse B doesn't work (i.e., no kids under 5 and no paid employment). Otherwise, who in the world besides you (and your wife) thinks like this?
Again, the scenarios I'm talking about are all cases where the husband works a full-time, professional job (40+ hours per week), and the wife does not work at all, or works part time. And yes, my wife agrees with me there.

If both spouses are working 40 hours a week, then it's more of a gray area, and should be decided by the couple, not by society or by strangers on a message board.
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Old 02-21-2016, 06:16 PM
 
Location: here
24,469 posts, read 28,737,691 times
Reputation: 31039
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
That's not my point. This topic started because some posters seemed to imply, as you are perhaps doing, that those who aren't parents somehow have a less valid view than those with the title of parent. I believe this is false assumption as a whole as correct, there are good parents, bad parents, and in between parents. There's gray here. Therefore, having the title of parent/that experience doesn't necessarily mean that said parent is the best reference for advice. I'm not impressed by a title where many examples exists under said title of parent are less than shiny examples(ie abusive parents, druggies, selfish, alcoholics, etc). Nor should any of us trust a title so blindly. Seems common sense to me but perhaps some are more impressed by titles alone than I who feels the criteria of a title is all that's needed to dispense valid advice.

As for listening to other views/comprehending them, I have been but just disagree with some of them, as I'm sure you do in various life topics. My view is an infant/young child is best with a parent full time. Many others, perhaps yourself, think differently. I just simply disagree with some of the views as some out there disagree with mine.
Just because I eat in a restaurant, doesn't mean I can tell the chef how to make the food. Use any analogy you want. It doesn't take a professional to spot really bad food, or a really bad parent. However, it does take some experience to understand the details and nuances involved. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. Your assumptions about parents making these decisions for selfish reasons are just that - ASSumptions with no basis in fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Again, the scenarios I'm talking about are all cases where the husband works a full-time, professional job (40+ hours per week), and the wife does not work at all, or works part time. And yes, my wife agrees with me there.

If both spouses are working 40 hours a week, then it's more of a gray area, and should be decided by the couple, not by society or by strangers on a message board.
That's entirely different than basing it on the income only. That's basing it on the time spent at work, which I agreed with.
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Old 02-21-2016, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,575,371 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
I think it's not as black and white as that. Besides, you assign motivations to people in a very generalized way, and I beg to differ with your characterization of working parents as shallow materialistic persons as a whole.

And I know it's not that black and white precisely because (I mostly, but my spouse too - were home with our child full time). So while I probably would have agreed with you prior to having a child, now that I've had one and done exactly that, I'm not entirely sure my child would have not done better if we'd let her experience some more varied care giving scenarios while she was younger.

I'd say YMMV, but I don't know what your mileage actually is.
Well rounded response FinsterRufus.
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Old 02-21-2016, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,074 posts, read 4,575,371 times
Reputation: 7672
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
And that is why research matters. But the research shows that there are real advantages to having both parents work.

Look, if you are going to play the anecdote game, rather than look at the actual research that is fine. But anecdotes about parenting from people who are actually parents, hold more weight than people who are not. Sure, everyone is welcome to their opinion, but not all opinions are as valuable to a discussion. One's like yours that are not based on fact, reason or even firsthand experience are particularly not valuable to a discussion of parents "having it all".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 View Post
You are certainly entitled to your views ~ but in your scenario, one of us IS a politician; one of us IS an engineer and one of us is a musician. And the other is simply offering an opinion. As the musician, politician, and engineer (i.e. Parent), I will decide how valid that offering is.

And if you have never been there 'done that" then your opinion isn't worth all that much, IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kibbiekat View Post
Just because I eat in a restaurant, doesn't mean I can tell the chef how to make the food. Use any analogy you want. It doesn't take a professional to spot really bad food, or a really bad parent. However, it does take some experience to understand the details and nuances involved. You have no idea what goes on behind closed doors. Your assumptions about parents making these decisions for selfish reasons are just that - ASSumptions with no basis in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayerdu View Post
Actually, that is not the correct logic. The correct logic would be you telling a chef how to prep his food, how to correctly handle ingredients, how to set his station, how to plate, etc. which would be ridiculous if you have never been a chef. I can guarantee you that a chef will not seriously consider cooking advice from someone just because he watches Top Chef and/or have been in a kitchen observing others cook.
As ikb0714 mentions, let's look at the data on "parent(s)", that esteemed title given to anyone who does a biological act and the topic that this title "holds more weight", people who have "done that", "assumptions", and the common assumption here the word parent = worthy advice givers:

Child Abuse Statistics in the United States


So using your "logic" that those with the title of "parent" automatically have the high hand on what's best for a child rings very hollow in the reality of the data.

"Although the incidence of child abuse and neglect has been decreasing in recent years, at least 686,000 children, or almost 1 in every 100 children in the United States, were abused in 2012.

The majority (75 percent) of the children were victims of neglect (531,241 children), meaning a parent or guardian failed to provide for the child's basic needs.

Forms of neglect include medical neglect (15,705 children), educational neglect, physical neglect, and emotional neglect.

Another 25 percent were victims of abuse, including physical abuse (124,544 children), sexual abuse (62,936 children), and emotional abuse.

An average of nearly five children die every day as a result of child abuse or neglect (1,593 in 2012)."

I believe your infatuation with the title parent, who requires nothing more than a biological act to earn, isn't very impressive. And according to the data, 1 in every 100 children who are abused in some way, proves this point. That's a bunch of kids with some horrible parents that you all seem to believe can offer the best advice, just based on the title parent. And these are abuse cases.....there are not so good parents sprinkled in all about who have the title "parent" that I'd be willing to bet think they are the parents of the year.

Not impressed people as you are with your "parent" title, who offer the best advice above all non-parents, nor should I be.

A poster Mattie told the story the other day on this thread about her friend who kept kids in a house while getting beat by her husband and stuck around for money, thinking it had no impact on those kids, as a parent, blind to the data that says something far different, is exhibit A spoken right on this board about how some parents act. I didn't read any comments besides Mattie on that story/touch it with a 10 ft poll on how harmful that is too the kids based on the data I posted so I'm guessing some here agree with the action of this mother and think this is a good parental response and trust her judgement as indisputable because she has the title "mother/parent"?

Last edited by stevek64; 02-21-2016 at 07:16 PM..
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