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Old 03-07-2016, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
16,501 posts, read 15,961,355 times
Reputation: 38888

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
I had some great responses on here and some folks said things so lovely it brought tears to my eyes. There are some truly kind people on this forum--people who understand that we all do the best we can with what we have.

That said, there are some really mean spirited ones as well and those who know nothing about walking in my shoes so much as an inch, much less a mile. I esp love the ones about me choosing to forego treatment. Uh, no. I went out and hired a board certified internist with an MD behind his name and put myself in his hands. Believe me, it has involved more than a diet change and a handful of herbs every day. Someone mentioned the 100% cure rate for breast cancer if done conventionally? LOL, in whose dreams? The 100% death rate for those who choose holistic? It seems some of you are hoping I'll drop dead just to prove your point and I know at least 10 people who do disprove your point. Those who suggested that I had caught it early so I'm be stooopid to not do conventional. Where did I say that? I was thought to be stage III at dx with grade 2, meaning moderately fast growing. If my holistic therapy hadn't worked I'd be dead or on my deathbed by now and my tumor would have grown quite a lot, or be fungated, as someone gleefully suggested. Chemo doesn't have much efficacy with the type of tumor I have. Trotting out Steve Jobs' name just makes me laugh (sadly). I could name 100 more people who've died with conventional treatment. Not that I think it's worthless--just not for me. What it all comes down to is that we have to believe in what we're doing to treat it and if you all think that's new age hooey dooey then consider what drug companies have to go thru to test around the placebo effect and they even have to do double blind studies to get around having the doctor's beliefs. There's also a nocebo effect, meaning if you think the treatment will hurt you, it probably will. Well guess what. . . ? I would never ever tell someone how they should go about getting health care and I don't believe my choices are better than anyone else's. They are right for me. Some of you could do me at least the same courtesy--I'm not a stupid person with airy fairy pie in the sky dreams.

The most bitter accusation of all on here was that about my selfishness and that came more than once. Selfish is not a word that describes me. When I got this dx, I was a first year teacher who'd just moved down to this rural area to work at a very economically challenged school. There was no one to lead me thru the paperwork on my new job and I was absolutely overwhelmed by all of it. Then I got the dx and just about had a nervous breakdown from all the work and now this. Called my family but no one came. There were only 3 people to call anyway. Scheduled surgery and chemo but wondered who was going to help me thru this? Who was going to come and stay the 2-4 weeks that I was going to need someone to help me in and out of the shower and cook meals and let the dog out? My brother sure as hell wasn't going to do it and he's a pilot anyway. One of my girls would have had to drop out of college or the other would have had to quit a job and they would have had to move down here, a place they hate. I chose not to put them thru that, after furtively checking to see if they'd even be willing to do it. If that makes me selfish then I'm the biggest ass in the world. Somehow I don't believe that though. Gawd, why don't people think before they post such things?
I am so very sorry that this happened to you.

I am so very sorry that your family did not "step up" to help you in your time of need.

I would have thought that between the three members of your family maybe they could have shared the duties or responsibilities, such as one daughter missing a week of college classes and the other using one week of vacation time from her job. And, maybe your brother could have used a week of his vacation time or helped with finances for you to hire someone to help you. I am sad that your choices were limited because your family did not help you when you needed help.

I hope that everyone who questioned your decision to not have surgery & chemo reads and rereads your post. And, I hope that people who are suggesting your daughter is not responding to you because she is worried that you may die because of not doing conventional surgery & chemo for your breast cancer may want to rethink that theory.

I really wish the best for you.

Last edited by germaine2626; 03-07-2016 at 09:13 PM..
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:01 PM
 
1,039 posts, read 607,861 times
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Its actually a process called Individuation and its unhealthy to interfere with it.


OP your daughter is behaving entirely as expected. She's forming her own personality and has to be Away From Mommy to do it.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:24 PM
 
635 posts, read 396,407 times
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I think your daughter's behavior is pretty normal for her age so I wouldn't read too much into it. My 21 year old daughter lives ten minutes away from me and I'm lucky to see her once every six weeks. She will normally return my calls or texts within a few hours but most of our conversations consistent of me asking her how she's doing and her responding in one word answers.

It does hurt my feelings sometimes that she doesn't want to spend more time with me but I try to remember what I was like at her age and I didn't want to hang out with my mom much either when I was in my early twenties. All I can do is keep the door open and let her know that I'm here whenever she needs me and hopefully she'll come around more.
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:18 PM
 
6,169 posts, read 3,262,714 times
Reputation: 12518
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
and she never answers her phone either. Then I will text her and ask her to choose a time to talk to me but she doesn't answer that either. I know college kids are famous for that but seems mine is worse than most and when I bug her she will finally answer a text but give me a line about how busy she is. Like she can't answer a simple text? She is getting ready to graduate but I am furious with her attitude that talking to mom doesn't matter at all and I'm thinking seriously of cutting her off the cellphone plan. I have paid for all of her college and was always a good mom and even she says so but doesn't feel the need to connect at all. Also, I do understand that young adults are pulling away and building their own lives but it seems extreme to cut all ties.

Another reason this hurts so much is because I have breast cancer, which I am dealing with holistically rather than the usual conventional treatment, and maybe she's mad b/c she doesn't believe in that, but if that's the case then she surely believes I'll die and she still doesn't want to talk to me? And like, it's my body. I've known about this for 2-1/2 years and I'm doing very well but I didn't feel that I had a lot of support out of either daughter when the news hit. And yet both girls say I am and always have been a fantastic mom and that they had a wonderful childhood. I don't criticize them and their lifestyle and we have fun when we're together but I just don't seem to matter. Their dad left when they were 14 and 16 after he came out gay, so I had nothing to do with the dissolution of the marriage and they never blamed me for that.

How do other parents deal? Is it this extreme for you? How to fix it?
Maybe I can give you a bit of insight from a daughter's perspective. Although I'm 62 now, I was never one to call either of my parents (they were divorced when I was about 15). He remarried.

Unlike all my other siblings, I moved out of state years ago. My mother would call regularly. If she left a msg, I'd call her back. But I didn't often call her, and never called my father, although I'd answer if he called, which was rarely.

The reason I didn't call more often or reach out a lot to my parents is that I simply wasn't raised that way. I did not grow up with close, daily connections with either of my parents. The birthdays passed, school events, whatever....neither parent made much effort to be in attendance, give me a birthday party, or pay me much attention. Although I loved them and we got along. (My dad was off starting a new life with his new wife, and my mom was very self-involved and not faring well after my dad left. Her time was limited with that and with my four siblings, so not much time left for me. Which is fine.)

So when I grew up, that pattern continued. It was nothing personal.

It's like that song "Cat in the Cradle." Your children become what you raised them to be, whether intentionally or by example. Often, they become what you were to them when they were young.

Quote:
Well my son turned ten just the other day
He said, "Thanks for the ball, dad, come on and let's play
Can you teach me to throw?" I said, "Not today
I got a lot to do." He said, "That's okay"

And he walked away, but his smile never dimmed
Said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah
You know, I'm gonna be like him"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man in the moon
"When you coming home, dad?" "I don't know when,
But we'll get together then, son, you know we'll have a good time then"

Well, he came from college just the other day
So much like a man, I just had to say
"Son, I'm proud of you, can you sit for a while?"
He shook his head and he said with a smile

"What I'd really like, dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later
Can I have them please?"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man in the moon
"When you coming home, son?" "I don't know when.
But we'll get together then, dad. We're gonna have a good time then."

Well, I've long since retired and my son's moved away
Called him up just the other day
I said, "I'd like to see you if you don't mind"
He said, "I'd love to, dad, if I could find the time"

"You see, my new job's a hassle and the kid's got the flu
But it's sure nice talking to you, dad
It's been sure nice talking to you"

And as I hung up the phone, it occurred to me
He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me
Maybe that's not the case with your college daughter. Maybe she's just very involved with her life, a lot going on, meeting guys and school and new friends. She's young and immature. It's not unusual to be self-involved at that age. But let her know that you miss talking to her. Be forthright. She will probably make more of an effort.

Even if her case is like mine, it can be changed. But you have to make a pattern of routine, frequent contact with her. Phone calls are best, but emails are okay. Texting is sort of brief as a form of real communication.

Last edited by bpollen; 03-07-2016 at 10:32 PM..
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:23 PM
 
1,847 posts, read 971,012 times
Reputation: 4027
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
and she never answers her phone either. Then I will text her and ask her to choose a time to talk to me but she doesn't answer that either. I know college kids are famous for that but seems mine is worse than most and when I bug her she will finally answer a text but give me a line about how busy she is. Like she can't answer a simple text? She is getting ready to graduate but I am furious with her attitude that talking to mom doesn't matter at all and I'm thinking seriously of cutting her off the cellphone plan. I have paid for all of her college and was always a good mom and even she says so but doesn't feel the need to connect at all. Also, I do understand that young adults are pulling away and building their own lives but it seems extreme to cut all ties.

Another reason this hurts so much is because I have breast cancer, which I am dealing with holistically rather than the usual conventional treatment, and maybe she's mad b/c she doesn't believe in that, but if that's the case then she surely believes I'll die and she still doesn't want to talk to me? And like, it's my body. I've known about this for 2-1/2 years and I'm doing very well but I didn't feel that I had a lot of support out of either daughter when the news hit. And yet both girls say I am and always have been a fantastic mom and that they had a wonderful childhood. I don't criticize them and their lifestyle and we have fun when we're together but I just don't seem to matter. Their dad left when they were 14 and 16 after he came out gay, so I had nothing to do with the dissolution of the marriage and they never blamed me for that.

How do other parents deal? Is it this extreme for you? How to fix it?
When my son stopped calling when he was in college I told him no more money until he called at least twice a month. That worked.

Please, please, please, get real treatment for your breast cancer. I recently met a woman who did the holistic approach for the last two years. Her tumor came through her skin and bled so badly that she needed transfusions and a week in the hospital. She can't sleep on her back because it hurts so bad and she can't use her left arm because of the tumor. She is now getting conventional treatment but her survival odds are slim. The sooner you get treatment, the easier it will be. The longer you wait, the worse it will be. Please see a surgeon and begin treatment. Yes, it's your body that is a very selfish attitude because when you die it is your daughters who will suffer. If you love them as you claim, see a doctor! Help yourself before it's too late!
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:28 PM
 
1,847 posts, read 971,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedgehog_Mom View Post
I think that's a point worth considering. If your daughter really disapproves of how you're handling your medical care and she feels powerless to do anything except wait for you to die in pain, she may be too upset to talk to you often. I'm almost 40 and I can barely speak to my mom right now because I disapprove of how she's caring for my dad...every time I see her number on the caller ID, I figure she's calling to tell me he's died some grotesquely painful death from lack of supervision. It's been going on for a couple of years and I can't deal with the stress anymore. I've spent the last six months dealing with severe depression and I finally realized all the meds in the world aren't going to make me feel okay about my parents' situation and the only way I can deal with it is to put some distance between myself and the situation. Every time I talk to my mom, I get a migraine that lasts three days. I have my phone set not to ring when she calls or texts, and I took FB messenger off my phone and tablet, so that I can control how often I see her messages, because I can't handle the stress.

Of course, it could just be that your daughter is busy or stressed about other things, and she knows that you'll know she cares whether she calls or not, so she figures she'll communicate with you when she has time.
I hope the OP reads this and realize the torture she's about to put her daughter's through because she won't get treatment. She will die a terrible death and it's completely unnecessary. I know so many women who have survived breast cancer with conventional treatment and none, not a single one, has survived without it. Of course that's obvious, if something other than surgery, and other medical treatments worked, we'd all know about it and do it!
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:30 PM
 
1,847 posts, read 971,012 times
Reputation: 4027
Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
We've known about my illness for 2-1/2 years. Both girls had the attitude that I could just go to the doctor and get it fixed.
Yes, that's exactly what you could have done but you chose not to do that. How very sad for your girls. Why wouldn't you get treatment?
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Old 03-07-2016, 10:41 PM
 
1,847 posts, read 971,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildColonialGirl View Post
I would be tremendously angry if my mother decided to die without even trying any treatment. Google "breast cancer fungating" for an idea of what is going to happen. Breast cancer is so easily treatable for so many women these days. Even just surgery has a high cure rate, and chemo now is often not the awful experience it used to be.

having said that, if a loved one had tried, and was dying, and had the choice between a very painful treatment which would buy them a few weeks or a few months and palliative care, I would support their choice. But early in the disease, when they could be cured, to just decide to do nothing? I would be very angry. Look at Jess Ainscough, Steve Jobs, etc.
Exactly! A stage one breast cancer has a 99% cure rate. A stage 2 is 93% curable, stage 3 is 73% even when a stage 4, 22% survive for at least 5 years. Breast cancer survival rates, by stage There is NO excuse for not getting treatment. I've had two cancers, including breast cancer, and my children were my biggest supporters and cheerleaders. They wouldn't have spoken to me if I chose to not complete treatment and I could never have done that to them. I love them too much to force them to deal with my advancing cancer and death. While treatment wasn't fun, it was completely doable. No one knew I had cancer unless I chose to tell them. I did everything I normally do but slept a bit more. Drugs are great to control any and all side effects. I still enjoyed my life very much and knew I had done everything I could to beat the beast and I did!

Perhaps the daughter wonders why her mother doesn't love her enough to get treatment. Perhaps she thinks her mother is completely selfish to not get treatment. I can certainly understand why her daughter would be furiously angry at her mother. Any child of a parent with cancer would feel that way. It's so unfair to her children and they know it. No wonder the girl doesn't want to speak to her mother, she doesn't think her mother cares about her. Why should she care about her mother?
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Old 03-08-2016, 05:24 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
9,459 posts, read 16,429,915 times
Reputation: 13164
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrassTacksGal View Post
Please, please, please, get real treatment for your breast cancer. I recently met a woman who did the holistic approach for the last two years. Her tumor came through her skin and bled so badly that she needed transfusions and a week in the hospital. She can't sleep on her back because it hurts so bad and she can't use her left arm because of the tumor. She is now getting conventional treatment but her survival odds are slim. The sooner you get treatment, the easier it will be. The longer you wait, the worse it will be. Please see a surgeon and begin treatment. Yes, it's your body that is a very selfish attitude because when you die it is your daughters who will suffer. If you love them as you claim, see a doctor! Help yourself before it's too late!
Yes dear, I know about fungating tumors--it's a sickening thought and I'm well aware of it. I also know someone who burned from the inside out due to a rare side effect of chemo. Rare, but the woman was genetically related to me and I also have a tendency to react badly to meds and to anesthesia. The truth is that many people who die of cancer, die due to the treatment but the docs can claim success b/c they didn't die of cancer!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrassTacksGal View Post
I hope the OP reads this and realize the torture she's about to put her daughter's through because she won't get treatment. She will die a terrible death and it's completely unnecessary. I know so many women who have survived breast cancer with conventional treatment and none, not a single one, has survived without it. Of course that's obvious, if something other than surgery, and other medical treatments worked, we'd all know about it and do it!
And how many people do you know who have chosen holistic therapy? I'm talking about going to a holistic doc, not researching supplements on the internet. The fact is that when folks heal from using alt methods, the docs will dismiss it as spontaneous remission and say that it must have been a coincidence. I know 3 people that happened to, but none of them did nothing and all did something. For one of them all she did was make amends (AA style) to all the relatives and friends she'd screwed over but a big component of healing is mental/emotional.

Since I run in holistic circles, I know several people who are or who have successfully treated their cancer with this method. One of my best friends is a 62 yo woman who looks 20 years younger and is 6 years out from a dx with no conventional treatment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrassTacksGal View Post
Exactly! A stage one breast cancer has a 99% cure rate. A stage 2 is 93% curable, stage 3 is 73% even when a stage 4, 22% survive for at least 5 years. Breast cancer survival rates, by stage There is NO excuse for not getting treatment. I've had two cancers, including breast cancer, and my children were my biggest supporters and cheerleaders. They wouldn't have spoken to me if I chose to not complete treatment and I could never have done that to them. I love them too much to force them to deal with my advancing cancer and death. While treatment wasn't fun, it was completely doable. No one knew I had cancer unless I chose to tell them. I did everything I normally do but slept a bit more. Drugs are great to control any and all side effects. I still enjoyed my life very much and knew I had done everything I could to beat the beast and I did!

Perhaps the daughter wonders why her mother doesn't love her enough to get treatment. Perhaps she thinks her mother is completely selfish to not get treatment. I can certainly understand why her daughter would be furiously angry at her mother. Any child of a parent with cancer would feel that way. It's so unfair to her children and they know it. No wonder the girl doesn't want to speak to her mother, she doesn't think her mother cares about her. Why should she care about her mother?
And at the rate I'm going I will be very much alive and well for at least 5 years.

Apparently you missed this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stepka View Post
I had some great responses on here and some folks said things so lovely it brought tears to my eyes. There are some truly kind people on this forum--people who understand that we all do the best we can with what we have.

That said, there are some really mean spirited ones as well and those who know nothing about walking in my shoes so much as an inch, much less a mile. I esp love the ones about me choosing to forego treatment. Uh, no. I went out and hired a board certified internist with an MD behind his name and put myself in his hands. Believe me, it has involved more than a diet change and a handful of herbs every day. Someone mentioned the 100% cure rate for breast cancer if done conventionally? LOL, in whose dreams? The 100% death rate for those who choose holistic? It seems some of you are hoping I'll drop dead just to prove your point and I know at least 10 people who do disprove your point. Those who suggested that I had caught it early so I'm be stooopid to not do conventional. Where did I say that? I was thought to be stage III at dx with grade 2, meaning moderately fast growing. If my holistic therapy hadn't worked I'd be dead or on my deathbed by now and my tumor would have grown quite a lot, or be fungated, as someone gleefully suggested. Chemo doesn't have much efficacy with the type of tumor I have. Trotting out Steve Jobs' name just makes me laugh (sadly). I could name 100 more people who've died with conventional treatment. Not that I think it's worthless--just not for me. What it all comes down to is that we have to believe in what we're doing to treat it and if you all think that's new age hooey dooey then consider what drug companies have to go thru to test around the placebo effect and they even have to do double blind studies to get around having the doctor's beliefs. There's also a nocebo effect, meaning if you think the treatment will hurt you, it probably will. Well guess what. . . ? I would never ever tell someone how they should go about getting health care and I don't believe my choices are better than anyone else's. They are right for me. Some of you could do me at least the same courtesy--I'm not a stupid person with airy fairy pie in the sky dreams.

The most bitter accusation of all on here was that about my selfishness and that came more than once. Selfish is not a word that describes me. When I got this dx, I was a first year teacher who'd just moved down to this rural area to work at a very economically challenged school. There was no one to lead me thru the paperwork on my new job and I was absolutely overwhelmed by all of it. Then I got the dx and just about had a nervous breakdown from all the work and now this. Called my family but no one came. There were only 3 people to call anyway. Scheduled surgery and chemo but wondered who was going to help me thru this? Who was going to come and stay the 2-4 weeks that I was going to need someone to help me in and out of the shower and cook meals and let the dog out? My brother sure as hell wasn't going to do it and he's a pilot anyway. One of my girls would have had to drop out of college or the other would have had to quit a job and they would have had to move down here, a place they hate. I chose not to put them thru that, after furtively checking to see if they'd even be willing to do it. If that makes me selfish then I'm the biggest ass in the world. Somehow I don't believe that though. Gawd, why don't people think before they post such things?
And now let me ask you this. I don't normally do this with people but you came at me with both fists flying and you need to hear this. When you got cancer, did you change your lifestyle? Did you stop eating sugar and start eating more vegetables? Did you research and start taking supplements to help balance your body and did you get concerned about your vitamin D level? Did you make sure you have an exercise routine in place with no excuses for bad weather days? Or did you just trust that the doctors know what they're doing and carry on as before in the habits you had formerly? This is not a "blame the victim" game, but I'm taking the American Cancer Society at their word when they say that 90% of all cancers are preventable. If you just say you avoid sugar I'll believe you're serious, but most people still eat it long after the chemo is over. And no, I don't buy the moderation argument--who knows what moderation is? Nobody I know. Also, you apparently are one of the lucky ones in not suffering too badly from SEs of treatment, but people are all over the board with that and some are knocked into the ground with it. I've done a lot of work with my treatment but I've never been knocked into the ground and have felt better and better and I feel better now than when I was a kid b/c I've had health problems most of my life and found out thru this that many of those health problems were caused by mercury poisoning that occurred when I played with the contents of a thermometer when I was 11.
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Old 03-08-2016, 05:28 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
9,459 posts, read 16,429,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostnip View Post
I can't imagine why she doesn't want to call very often, lol.
Even the most loving of moms can realize that her beautiful baby has faults. LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonnie Jean McGee View Post
Its actually a process called Individuation and its unhealthy to interfere with it.

OP your daughter is behaving entirely as expected. She's forming her own personality and has to be Away From Mommy to do it.
Thanks Bonnie, I needed to be reminded of this. However, how does one balance this with the needs of the family? Maybe that's what I've been wondering all along.
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