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Old 07-25-2016, 11:55 AM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,653,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
I did not say it had to be "my way." You did.

This discussion has become tedious and unproductive as you are not open to change, nothing can be done, have offered no solutions, and continue to be negative, negative, negative. Leave the schools as they are, don't bother trying to improve them, don't get the community involved, no one will ever help or look to help or seek change, or progress in anyway. Head in sand, butt in air, nope, nope, nope, nope.

And to use a phrase from another poster, that is why I homeschool.

Homeschoolers are "can do" kids. "we can do that" "let's try it this way" "look what I made."

Public school kids: "we're not supposed to read ahead" "teacher said no, we have to do it THIS way" "no we can't do that yet" "we can only pick topics/books/projects from this list" "we can do that ... NEXT year." Multiple choice testing means no thinking involved, just pick an answer. Don't think, close your mind and do it ONLY this way. So, so very sad. Heart-hurting sad.
Oh please. Enough with the homeschool kids are geniuses and public school kids are drooling morons.

Public schools are working in the vast majority of communities across the country.

So instead of whining about how bad schools are why don't you actually EDUCATE YOURSELF since you are such a "can do" kind of person and actually learn about the thousands of public school districts that are down right excellent.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Ohio
5,624 posts, read 6,811,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Oh please. Enough with the homeschool kids are geniuses and public school kids are drooling morons.
its a common argument heard on both sides. IMO, Homeschoolers are no more smarter than their counters but they may know more in depth knowledge on a subject since they are allowed to study it longer. I could be wrong. YMMV
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:42 PM
 
175 posts, read 200,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohky0815 View Post
As a homeschooling parent the NUMBER ONE thing we hear about forever is " socialization".
Do you really think our children are hermit crabs? They never go to church, playgrounds, friends houses, the store, appointments, events, etc? They socialize the same way your children do.

You dont have to be religious, thats also a myth.

You do HAVE to follow your state LAWS for homeschooling. HSLDA.org for more info.

My daughters have never been to daycare or public school. They have friends who are in public and home schooled. We arent in a fancy co op or do an online school ( which is NOT homeschooling, its public school online).

OP, youre older, it wasnt really done in your day... dont bash the rest of us or spout your ideas on us.


Excuse me, online IS homeschooling. My daughter attended an online school last year-not affiliated with public schools. She had three hours per elementary classes and five hours for her secondary class (Latin) per week of work independent of the time she spent in her classes for a total of about 20 plus hours. I was there for that, keeping her on track and motivated. They use University model. This coming school year she will be taking Honors Pre-Algebra and a higher level composition class online. She will be doing homework and guess who will be assisting? Me or her tutor. I majored in Social Work many years ago, so I did not have to do higher math, however she wishes to be a veterinarian or an attorney and will need the higher math and sciences to leave doors open for her. Having online classes does not mean a parent gets to sit back and do nothing.


I do agree with the rest of your post. My daughter is MORE socialized homeschooling than when she was in public school and one does not have to be religious to homeschool. Atheists homeschool too.


I homeschooled one of my older children about fifteen years ago and it is vastly different than it was then by a long-shot.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:49 PM
 
175 posts, read 200,638 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Oh please. Enough with the homeschool kids are geniuses and public school kids are drooling morons.

Public schools are working in the vast majority of communities across the country.

So instead of whining about how bad schools are why don't you actually EDUCATE YOURSELF since you are such a "can do" kind of person and actually learn about the thousands of public school districts that are down right excellent.
Educate ourselves about what? The fact that there are both bad public schools and homeschooling and both great public schools and homeschooling?


If one has crappy schools where they live and cannot move or attend another there is not much more someone can do than look at other alternatives such as homeschooling. In the same vein, homeschooling does not always work out either, so a good public school will do.


As with most things this is not black and white.


I believe most parents do the best they can by their children whether it is public, private or homeschooled.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Florida
7,195 posts, read 5,691,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
I think this is why homeschooling frequently falls short So often at the secondary level. The deficit of subject level expertise cannot be overcome by the library and Internet for most secondary level classes.

Your example is one that I think typifies this problem. Ornithology is a complex and nuanced science. Watching documentaries, reading links, and hanging around with a bird watcher isn't learning ornithology, it's pursuing a hobby.

As an actual research scientist, one of the biggest problems I see in society is people think reading a website gives them an expertise on a subject. This notion that watching some documentaries and going on a field trip is the same thing as actually taking a class by an expert is just not true.

Just last week I was standing in as head teacher for a mini Marine biology course/camp for advanced students. Most were 9 and 10th graders, many were homeschooled. Two of the homeschatology parents tried to get me to sign off on the course for their transcripts as a 5 credit marine biology class. They were pissed when I refused due to the fact the class is only a week long as opposed to half a year. One of those parents earlier in the week had sent a nasty email to the coordinator of the program complaining I was giving misinformation because something I had said (about reproduction of the paper nautilus) couldn't be found on Google, and demanded their money back. When I sent them a scientific paper describing the hectocothlus they never even apologized.

Google, and a week long camp do not replace a class with a subject level expert and this is something I see frequently from the homeschool community.
I think that the schools in your area and the schools in my area must be very different if your high schoolers are studying ornithology to the depth that would be possible if one took a class led by an actual ornithologist. Here it seems to be a smattering of this and that, and no real depth in anything. At least according to the work given out in the non-honors classes and also the work done in the public-school-online science courses (my son took one last year for his science credit).

Asking for five credits (or even one credit or half a credit) for a week-long marine biology class is absurd. I can't imagine anyone I know doing that. LOL Which is not to say that there are not ridiculous people in the world who did that to you, just that I think the vast, vast majority of homeschooling parents would not.
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Old 07-25-2016, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Iowa
865 posts, read 620,617 times
Reputation: 588
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
Of kids in my peer group who were home schooled (I'm 28,) or who home school their children, they are all either very religious or their parents were. They mostly are all awkward as well. Then again, that was rather the point, when you get to the root of it; to raise children that weren't exposed to as much of the nastiness in the world, and would find and migrate to like minded folks in their adulthood.
I'm sad for you...protecting our children from the "nastiness in the world" is a bad thing? I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I feel it's my responsibility to protect my child's innocence until they're old enough to deal with it.

Yes, my family goes to church, but that's not why we homeschool...that's a silly relation.

You shouldn't comment on things you obviously know nothing about.
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:39 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,653,495 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohky0815 View Post
its a common argument heard on both sides. IMO, Homeschoolers are no more smarter than their counters but they may know more in depth knowledge on a subject since they are allowed to study it longer. I could be wrong. YMMV
I teach in a public STEM school, we go head to head with many of those homeschool kids in the science fairs and various symposia. They maybe able to study topics longer but their knowledge base, at the secondary level, is woefully spotty. For the gifted students who do not have scientist parents with access to labs, the STEM schools give them far more opportunity to gain in depth knowledge than can be done in a homeschool.

OTOH, if we are not discussing gifted or above average students, than I see the benefit of homeschooling for primary students. But this depth of knowledge myth is pervasive in the homeschool community, and despite having had nearly a hundred students who had been homeschooled for K-8, met one who had a superior depth of knowledge over their public school educated peers. I know for a fact that Florida has STEM academies, open to most students through out the state (Miami-Dade, Broward, Sarasota, Brevard, etc), including one that has an ornithology class taught by an ornithologist.

Last edited by lkb0714; 07-25-2016 at 01:53 PM..
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:50 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,653,495 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherTouchOfWhimsy View Post
I think that the schools in your area and the schools in my area must be very different if your high schoolers are studying ornithology to the depth that would be possible if one took a class led by an actual ornithologist. Here it seems to be a smattering of this and that, and no real depth in anything. At least according to the work given out in the non-honors classes and also the work done in the public-school-online science courses (my son took one last year for his science credit).

Asking for five credits (or even one credit or half a credit) for a week-long marine biology class is absurd. I can't imagine anyone I know doing that. LOL Which is not to say that there are not ridiculous people in the world who did that to you, just that I think the vast, vast majority of homeschooling parents would not.
NJ is a well ranked state in terms of education, but there are STEM schools and programs in schools all over the country. But we tend to be small programs (my school has less than 300 students) that most people don't know about. Most of these programs are not limited to one town or district, my school accepts students from all over the state.

I have also taught in regular public schools including an Abbott district (state controlled, low SES, urban district) and the level of rigor at those schools is beyond what is being touted in this thread as "rigor" of the home schooled lab classes. Even the plain old public school had an ecology elective which was taught by a biologist with a background in ornithology. And really online classes are apples to oranges to real lab classes.

Look, I get there are less than ideal public schools, but my concern is that IME the majority of homeschool parents I have known over the last 20 years hugely overestimate the quality of the science education their high school students get and have no idea what is taught in modern lab courses in decent programs.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:03 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,653,495 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnduringWon View Post
Educate ourselves about what? The fact that there are both bad public schools and homeschooling and both great public schools and homeschooling?
The person I was quoting, would not acknowledge that there were good public schools.


Quote:
If one has crappy schools where they live and cannot move or attend another there is not much more someone can do than look at other alternatives such as homeschooling. In the same vein, homeschooling does not always work out either, so a good public school will do.


As with most things this is not black and white.


I believe most parents do the best they can by their children whether it is public, private or homeschooled.
I was fairly indifferent to homeschooling one way or the other until this thread. I have had close to a hundred students who had been homeschooled until they got to our school. They were mostly a mixed bag like their public school peers. But, there was a perception held by a significant proportion of their parents that their kids had had a superior education due to being homeschooled, more of the "greater" depth mythology and thinking that having used a microscope and watching shark week documentaries made them more well versed in a subject than other kids. This thread really re-enforced that mythos.

I am beginning to realize many parents who homeschool are unaware of the various programs out there for kids who are interested in various specialties and what the level of rigor is in a typical AP lab class. And that is a shame. If that isn't you, good for your children.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:05 PM
 
16,825 posts, read 17,653,495 times
Reputation: 20851
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnduringWon View Post
Excuse me, online IS homeschooling. My daughter attended an online school last year-not affiliated with public schools. She had three hours per elementary classes and five hours for her secondary class (Latin) per week of work independent of the time she spent in her classes for a total of about 20 plus hours. I was there for that, keeping her on track and motivated. They use University model. This coming school year she will be taking Honors Pre-Algebra and a higher level composition class online. She will be doing homework and guess who will be assisting? Me or her tutor. I majored in Social Work many years ago, so I did not have to do higher math, however she wishes to be a veterinarian or an attorney and will need the higher math and sciences to leave doors open for her. Having online classes does not mean a parent gets to sit back and do nothing.


I do agree with the rest of your post. My daughter is MORE socialized homeschooling than when she was in public school and one does not have to be religious to homeschool. Atheists homeschool too.


I homeschooled one of my older children about fifteen years ago and it is vastly different than it was then by a long-shot.
If your daughter wishes to be a veterinarian, you should be concerned about her AP science classes and getting her some REAL research experience ASAP.

Greenville right? They have a great new tech high school with a mentorship program.
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