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And that is my point - there is nothing bizarre about my feedback - it has worked for countless people that I have known, including my family. Alternately, the methods you suggest would have had the opposite effect, which is disconcerting. There is nothing wrong with providing alternate perspective. Also generally people don't act alienated unless they've been made to feel that way, although that doesn't seem to hit your radar as possible at all. Instead you have this warped view that everyone is coddling children & being overprotective, when in reality parents seem to be acting more and more entitled treating their children as some sort of inconvenience while they wax nostalgically about the "good old days" when children were seen and not heard, another ridiculous concept that is cloaked as a value. Yes, Teens rebel. They don't stay in their rooms, not go to school, not get out of bed & ruin their future unless generally a progressive pattern over a longterm period of time has developed, where parental interference in which the child's wellbeing has been the central theme in the home. In my family if signs started to unfold that there was a problem in school, probably years ago, my parents would've put that on their radar as a #1 priority in discerning what was wrong & how to alter the path that their child was on. I can see many parents doling out consequences aka punishments but not getting involved to the level I am speaking to cut the situation off at the pass when it started, b/c that absorbs a good amount of time and effort.
For example, it is happening right now with a good friend of mine and her 12 year old. Her husband thinks her son should just be told to do his homework & if he doesn't do well be punished or sent to military school for good old fashioned discipline. Instead she has taken the exhaustive route of working with the teachers & him on a daily basis. This is absorbing a very high percentage of her life (she also has to work & has a 1 1/2 year old) but the rewards are starting to finally be reaped. He went through periods of lying, testing etc to see if she would decrease her involvement, b/c the level was so high his teachers were amazed (she emails them daily now) but now his attitude towards school has started to change, his friends are changing, his grades are slowly coming back, heck he even voluntarily has started to sit in the front of the room. Maybe someday she won't have to micro manage his schoolwork but right now she'll do it b/c as she says "failure isn't an option." She was able to discern that her schedule had been so hectic and she so exhausted that this was his way of attempting to get more attention from her. It got so bad that they were talking a learning disability however it turns out he just needed a different amount of time with mom and she is making that happen. Left unchecked with his grades simply reacted to or the way her husband who wanted to institute more tough love & discipline (although he is grudgingly starting to admit she is right but won't be involved in her method of doing things as it is coddling him), we both simultaneously said her son, in 5 - 6 years would've been the slacker dropout kid getting stoned in the garage & sleeping all day. Yes tough love has the word love in it, but the method in which it is often applied just creates a more contentious situation instead of getting to the root of the problem early on & fixing it. People, like my friend's husband, get so wrapped up in trying to make their kids grow up & not be coddled & to feel the consequences of their actions that they create an antagonistic relationship where things get out of control. Ironically, his family life growing up was much more functional then my friend whose parents definitely advocated the concept of tough love. And their results were horrible - she is the only functional adult out of her siblings. Since we grew up together, she is using my parents as a model in how to mother, not her parents. Gosh I should tell her how unrealistic my parents were, their results certainly don't speak for themselves, and advise her that she is acting bizarre by going with their method as a guidance to shaping hers. She should just do what her parents did since it is so much more in line with your advice (the results be damned b/c her kid will know who is in charge).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223
Again, you simply do not get it. Talk about foisting. You are foisting some mondo bizzarro parenting method on us that has zero basis in reality. None. Nada. Nein. Nichevo. How arrogant of you, the 60-second expert on everything. Bully for you that you are a sounding board for musicians. Now maybe you can buddy up with some nuclear physicists and solve that trivial issue of nuclear fusion that's been bedeviling everybody.
In fact, living in your alternative universe devoid of experience has created a huge, gaping flaw in your logic, one that is evident to everybody on this board who actually has children: Namely, that this is a child who has been nothing BUT coddled throughout the 18 years of his life.
So, in essence, this parent has already tried it your way. And look what it's gotten them--a ton of heartache. Desperation to the point that the parent is forced to ask a bunch of strangers on a message board for advice. A child incapable of doing the first thing for himself. For the only way to raise a child to be self-sufficient in life is to make that child responsible in life.
But we're not talking about a child anymore. We're talking about an adult. I have seen these kind of people in life and seen what happens. They live unhappy lives because the world hasn't been served up to them on a silver platter. They can't keep a job. They can't keep a marriage. They can't keep friendships. Instead, they ping back and forth in life and create misery and worry for anybody who gives a damn about them. They are consumers of happiness rather than creators of it. And you, in your naivety and misguided readings of pop psychology, want to enable them further.
What's more, you seem to be so fearful of a resentful teenager. Guess what? Resentful teenagers are the result of nothing being expected of the child at an earlier age, then actually having to expected to do something of value to the family.
Tough love is exactly that: Love. Quite frankly, the way these parents have blown it over the years, this is the last resort.
The research findings have been replicated over and over again...
Children of authoritative parents (high on nurturance/warmth but also on demandingness) fare much better than those of either authoritarian (high on demandingness but low on nurturance) OR permissive/indulgent parents (low on demandingness but high on nurturance).
Take from that what you will. Not a slam on anyone's opinion, but just some actual data to consider.
This has been my point. I think everyone presumes that b/c I don't believe in an authoritarian home in which the parents perceive themselves to be nurturing (but often are less then warm & more contentious) that must mean I advocate permissiveness. I think more parents wind up acting more authoritarian then they care to admit & I see that approach advocated, it appears, here.
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Originally Posted by CMMom
If you have ever taken a course in child development, you may have heard of Diana Baumrind and her research on parenting style.
If you haven't heard of this, check out this link:
The research findings have been replicated over and over again...
Children of authoritative parents (high on nurturance/warmth but also on demandingness) fare much better than those of either authoritarian (high on demandingness but low on nurturance) OR permissive/indulgent parents (low on demandingness but high on nurturance).
Take from that what you will. Not a slam on anyone's opinion, but just some actual data to consider.
The research findings have been replicated over and over again...
Children of authoritative parents (high on nurturance/warmth but also on demandingness) fare much better than those of either authoritarian (high on demandingness but low on nurturance) OR permissive/indulgent parents (low on demandingness but high on nurturance).
Take from that what you will. Not a slam on anyone's opinion, but just some actual data to consider.
Which is our exact style of parenting. But B75, despite her protestations, thinks there's never a need for tough love. Because wherever she sees a parent cracking down, she automatically dismisses it as enforcing dictatorial rule. Again, she provides clues to her reasoning in her own childhood by stating, "Gosh I should tell her how unrealistic my parents were, their results certainly don't speak for themselves, and advise her that she is acting bizarre by going with their method as a guidance to shaping hers."
In short, she had authoritarian parents. But the assertion of authority is not the same thing as authoritarian and she makes the mistake that far too many others do...compensate for the perceived failings of parents by swinging too far in the opposite direction.
Our children have autonomy to make their own decisions in life. But they also know that there are two absolutes: Schoolwork and being a responsible member of the household by helping out. They also know that the privilege of making decisions goes hand in hand with how well they fulfill their responsibilities. These do not spring from some Brady Bunch, heart-to-heart discussion that takes place in the child's teenage years. They are the result of a steady application of increasing expectations throughout the child's formative years.
But, again, 18 years of age is not the time to cosseting this child. Because the childhood years are over. And, at this point, stark choices have to be made for the good of the child and the good of the parents.
Which is our exact style of parenting. But B75, despite her protestations, thinks there's never a need for tough love. Because wherever she sees a parent cracking down, she automatically dismisses it as enforcing dictatorial rule. Again, she provides clues to her reasoning in her own childhood by stating, "Gosh I should tell her how unrealistic my parents were, their results certainly don't speak for themselves, and advise her that she is acting bizarre by going with their method as a guidance to shaping hers."
In short, she had authoritarian parents. But the assertion of authority is not the same thing as authoritarian and she makes the mistake that far too many others do...compensate for the perceived failings of parents by swinging too far in the opposite direction.
Our children have autonomy to make their own decisions in life. But they also know that there are two absolutes: Schoolwork and being a responsible member of the household by helping out. They also know that the privilege of making decisions goes hand in hand with how well they fulfill their responsibilities. These do not spring from some Brady Bunch, heart-to-heart discussion that takes place in the child's teenage years. They are the result of a steady application of increasing expectations throughout the child's formative years.
But, again, 18 years of age is not the time to cosseting this child. Because the childhood years are over. And, at this point, stark choices have to be made for the good of the child and the good of the parents.
Agreed. I do think that it is possible to set limits AND be nurturing at the same time. I agree with previous posters that issues relating to mental health, possible drug use, etc... should be checked out with the OP's son. Barring any clinical depression that should be treated, I agree that it is time for the OP to make some difficult decisions. Up until this point, she has (certainly unintentionally) taught him that she will be there to "bail him out" in difficult situations. She has inadvertently reinforced his irresponsibility. No doubt that it will be difficult to set limits now, but the chain must be broken. She is doing him no favors by making threats and then not following through. Either make no threats and attempt to guide him or follow through if he does not fulfill your terms. He is in for a rude awakening when he does get a job, because future employers (frankly) do not care what his problem may be if it is costing them money. AGAIN, setting limits can be done in a loving manner. Provided that the OP frames it that way as opposed to calling him worthless, lazy, etc..., this could be a tremendous life lesson for him.
Agreed. I do think that it is possible to set limits AND be nurturing at the same time. I agree with previous posters that issues relating to mental health, possible drug use, etc... should be checked out with the OP's son. Barring any clinical depression that should be treated, I agree that it is time for the OP to make some difficult decisions. Up until this point, she has (certainly unintentionally) taught him that she will be there to "bail him out" in difficult situations. She has inadvertently reinforced his irresponsibility. No doubt that it will be difficult to set limits now, but the chain must be broken. She is doing him no favors by making threats and then not following through. Either make no threats and attempt to guide him or follow through if he does not fulfill your terms. He is in for a rude awakening when he does get a job, because future employers (frankly) do not care what his problem may be if it is costing them money. AGAIN, setting limits can be done in a loving manner. Provided that the OP frames it that way as opposed to calling him worthless, lazy, etc..., this could be a tremendous life lesson for him.
What are you talking about? I have said repeatedly that I did not have authoritarian parents. I guess you are so stuck on the notion that you must be right that you have decided to disregard anything someone else posts as impossible. Are you this unreasonable IRL? Did you ever think that your posts read to me that you in fact ascribe to an authoritarian style of parenting, which is what I have been posting against? I'm sure of course given the definition that you would protest that in fact you are an authoritative parent, but that is not how you read to me at all. Funny, I never bothered using the terminology until it was posted by someone else, b/c truthfully I didn't think you had ever heard of it, since you have already stated how much you despise parenting books and anything approaching psychology (in favor of good old fashioned tough love ).
If anyone else is interested in some bizarro style parenting advise that is firmly in the camp of espousing an authoritative style parenting, Barbara Coloroso is an excellent author that some of my friends have read, whose advice closely mimics alot of the things my parents did to raise us, you know in bizarro land
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223
Which is our exact style of parenting. But B75, despite her protestations, thinks there's never a need for tough love. Because wherever she sees a parent cracking down, she automatically dismisses it as enforcing dictatorial rule. Again, she provides clues to her reasoning in her own childhood by stating, "Gosh I should tell her how unrealistic my parents were, their results certainly don't speak for themselves, and advise her that she is acting bizarre by going with their method as a guidance to shaping hers."
In short, she had authoritarian parents. But the assertion of authority is not the same thing as authoritarian and she makes the mistake that far too many others do...compensate for the perceived failings of parents by swinging too far in the opposite direction.
Our children have autonomy to make their own decisions in life. But they also know that there are two absolutes: Schoolwork and being a responsible member of the household by helping out. They also know that the privilege of making decisions goes hand in hand with how well they fulfill their responsibilities. These do not spring from some Brady Bunch, heart-to-heart discussion that takes place in the child's teenage years. They are the result of a steady application of increasing expectations throughout the child's formative years.
But, again, 18 years of age is not the time to cosseting this child. Because the childhood years are over. And, at this point, stark choices have to be made for the good of the child and the good of the parents.
What are you talking about? I have said repeatedly that I did not have authoritarian parents. I guess you are so stuck on the notion that you must be right that you have decided to disregard anything someone else posts as impossible. Are you this unreasonable IRL? Did you ever think that your posts read to me that you in fact ascribe to an authoritarian style of parenting, which is what I have been posting against? I'm sure of course given the definition that you would protest that in fact you are an authoritative parent, but that is not how you read to me at all. Funny, I never bothered using the terminology until it was posted by someone else, b/c truthfully I didn't think you had ever heard of it, since you have already stated how much you despise parenting books and anything approaching psychology (in favor of good old fashioned tough love ).
If anyone else is interested in some bizarro style parenting advise that is firmly in the camp of espousing an authoritative style parenting, Barbara Coloroso is an excellent author that some of my friends have read, whose advice closely mimics alot of the things my parents did to raise us, you know in bizarro land
I'm sorry. You just don't have a clue about raising children. You know next to nothing about it. And yet you keep offering up long, rambling discourses that basically gainsay all the people on this thread who are raising children. So forgive us for not taking you all that seriously.
Can anyone me help with suggestions or relevant experiences? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
All, this is the question by the OP. Please stay on topic and avoid personal comments to each other that can be intepreted as offensive or insulting.
Focus on the question.
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).