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Indeed. That is what I learned from my musical training, and in exploring why things like chords, harmonies and other things work. Mathematics shows why dissonance or concordance exists. With math you can even see why a guitar riff works, the notes are selected from a chord. You can explore augmented chords, 7th chords, etc. when playing chords or riffs.
Exactly... It should be noted (pun intended) that we describe music mathematically but that music does not express math... (If it did we would use just intonation instead of equal temperament) ...So I don't see any reason why listening to music, classical or otherwise, in utero or not, would improve anyone's ability in math.
So did you go to preschool? Did you sing the ABC song or do any fingerplay songs like If You're Happy and You Know it? Five Little Ducks? Five Little Monkeys Jumping on the Bed? The Wheels on the Bus? Rain, Rain, Go Away? I am 72 and heard these songs as a 3 year old.
That does not mean that you can't listen to any adult music and expose kids to it. I play piano and love classical music, so my kids were exposed to that. I also loved Folk Music and my kids were exposed to Peter, Paul and Mary and to Simon and Garfunkel. Admittedly, I didn't like rap, so they were not exposed to that until they were old enough to listen to it on their own.
no i did not go to preschool or kindergarten either.
so no i did not do any of those kiddie songs growing up.
kiddie songs just seemed to me to be treating the kids as kind of dumb and addled.
in contrast to children's books which are marvelous and engaging and rich and appeal to both adults and kids, and don't feel condescending the way kiddie music does to me. Kids don't like to have stuff dumbed down to them. And it is not necessary.
Exactly... It should be noted (pun intended) that we describe music mathematically but that music does not express math... (If it did we would use just intonation instead of equal temperament) ...So I don't see any reason why listening to music, classical or otherwise, in utero or not, would improve anyone's ability in math.
I don't disagree with you in spirit but mainly in form. We most of us come with music "built in." IMO it is partly due to our speech skills. You have seen musicians even instrumentalists mouthing silently as they play their instruments. That is proof to me that music and language are related.
For me I was always good at math (genetically gifted due to no work on my part except picking the right parents) but I wanted to learn guitar in my early teens (probably as a result of my admiration of musicians, I wanted to be like them) but of course to be good you need talent and alas I had talents but music was not among them. However in later years my interest in music continued and I acquired more advanced math skills and in retrospect I analyzed my music training and began to fully understand why music works the way it does, why some things sound good and other things sound bad. With the tools of mathematics I began to fully understand the science behind the art of music.
It's sort of like art where every artist knows you don't place the focal point of your art smack dab in the middle of the piece. I still don't know the math behind art; maybe there isn't any. I'm an intuitive artist and that's fine with me. At least I do better at art than in playing guitar. But oh my gosh I can sure play my CD player well!
It's interesting to note that there are other music tonal systems than our most common Western music system. The other systems are still mathematically based, and of course the math merely describes the basis on how we hear sounds and how we perceive them as music.
And that may be a clue why early music training improves intelligence in later life. For hearing, music and math to be connected in your brain, it seems to me that stimulating that part of your brain at an early age leads to greater ability in later life. I can't explain why and I don't know if science understands either, but the correlation studies I've seen are proof to me that my premise is correct: early exposure to music training leads to improved intelligence later in life.
Not related but just a comment, it is interesting that dissonance is sometimes interesting as a counterpoint to set off a mainly consonant piece of music, like perhaps as a final stroke to end a piece.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
kiddie songs just seemed to me to be treating the kids as kind of dumb and addled.
in contrast to children's books which are marvelous and engaging and rich and appeal to both adults and kids, and don't feel condescending the way kiddie music does to me. Kids don't like to have stuff dumbed down to them. And it is not necessary.
I agree with you on both counts. As far as kiddie books, children's minds are not well enough developed to understand adult books, nor are they mature enough to be able to handle adult subjects (such as e.g. murder). It must be a pleasure to read your kids to bed with their fairy tales and kiddie books, before they are of reading age. I think this is good.
But talking to them in "kid talk" is just wrong to me. They will mimic language whatever way you speak it. That is how humans learn language. Please people, skip the kiddie stage and teach them adult speech from the beginning, so they won't have to unlearn kid speak to learn adult speak.
Kids are not dumb nor addled. They are illiterate and uneducated. Your job is to teach them literacy and educate them, then later their school teachers take more of the job. But never forget this: your education (and mine) never ends. I am a senior citizen and I'm still learning, still expanding my grasp of knowledge. Your last day in school or college is the day before you take on the job of continuing your education for the rest of your life.
Last edited by Lovehound; 08-10-2017 at 09:53 PM..
no i did not go to preschool or kindergarten either.
so no i did not do any of those kiddie songs growing up.
kiddie songs just seemed to me to be treating the kids as kind of dumb and addled.
in contrast to children's books which are marvelous and engaging and rich and appeal to both adults and kids, and don't feel condescending the way kiddie music does to me. Kids don't like to have stuff dumbed down to them. And it is not necessary.
Interesting. Fingerplays and songs are actually important in teaching language and rhythm. They are not treating kids as dumb and addled at all and the kids love them especially when they are in groups of other kids doing the same ones together.
Using fingerplays, songs and rhymes helps children learn language by increasing vocabulary, learning the sounds of words and hearing the rhythm of language. Children can also gain large and small motor skills by performing movements required in fingerplays. Memory and social skills are also learned by participating in fingerplays, songs and rhymes. Mother Goose and nursery rhymes are also good for this.
You certainly do not *have* to do any of this, but it's fun.
Good idea, pointing out that learning to play a musical instrument also improves motor skills, particularly fine motor skills. I can see that getting an early start on that could result in a lifetime increase in motor ability. The coordination with rhythm and scale brings in additional brain development.
I am extremely doubtful that a child's brain is well enough developed to be influenced by such things before birth.
However, I've seen psychological studies that children (maybe 3-12 years old) benefit from two things: learning to speak two or more languages, and learning to play any musical instrument. The multiple languages should be under 10 and the musical training could be tweens. Doesn't matter if the music training lasts only a few years and they quit; the benefit lasts lifelong.
The two together have been correlated with increased language skills and increased IQ.
Sadly I learned my second language in high school, probably too late to benefit although I've always been good at English (grammar, spelling, vocabulary, composition) but probably was just gifted with those skills. My music training was about 14-16 (guitar) and was probably too late to benefit my IQ although to this day I feel that I enjoy music more because of my understanding of musical relationships and structure; I did learn something there, I do understand the math of music. That's right, there is math in music!
If I were to have kids (I'm too old to start now) I'd make sure they learned at least English and two other languages before 10, and they would get music training same age, I'd let them pick whatever instrument they wanted (or change instruments if they wish) as long as they get the training. After they've had a few years I'd let them quit if they wanted.
If I have a daughter I'm going to buy her one of those controversial t-shirts that say "I'm too pretty to do math" on it. So cute.
Last edited by Alabamarose; 08-11-2017 at 05:58 PM..
Back in 1928, mother-of-two almost adolescent sons Gertrude was delighted to find herself pregnant once again. This time, she just knew her baby would be a darling little golden-haired girl. A strong believer in prenatal influence, Gertrude visited art galleries and museums, read good literature, took good care of herself, and played classical and ballet music all day.
She got her little golden-haired girl, and named her Shirley.
Shirley Jane Temple, to be precise.
It certainly worked for Gertrude Temple.
Cutest, smartest, most talented kid ever. Love her.
I agree with you on both counts. As far as kiddie books, children's minds are not well enough developed to understand adult books, nor are they mature enough to be able to handle adult subjects (such as e.g. murder).
Not developed enough to understand or handle adult subjects like murder?
When I was three I totally understood that the hunter killed Bambie's mother. So did all other young children. I was saddened by the death of Bambie's mom, but was able to handle it like all other kids were.
Last edited by Alabamarose; 08-11-2017 at 06:07 PM..
We went for this. We even bought special CDs of classical music selected specifically for womb development. Also I regularly talked to all of the babies in the womb so they would be used to my voice as well as well as Mom's.
I think it worked. Our children are smarter and/or better than any other children. We like them best of all other children in the world. The reason they are so wonderful and perfect in every way is probably due solely to the womb music CD we bought for $40 all those years ago. 3 of them even ended up being accomplished musicians.
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