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Maybe women just don't want to raise children alone outside of a strong marriage or at least a relationship.
I don't see where they even mention that and the state seems focused on or alluding to single women. What's the marriage rate in Finland?
It's ironic to put the "blame" and responsibility on females just because they do the actual physical delivery. I thought women were equal to men? And I thought same sex marriage was commonly accepted now? Are men just sperm donors?
A care package of crap and a couple months paid leave is supposed to make women run to have kids? SERIOUSLY? Apparently the political class has never had to shoulder the responsibility of parenthood alone for a minimum of 20 years but in reality - FOREVER.
I thought Finland was so "equal" yet, it's even in the opening statement. "In which to be a MOTHER".
Why isn't it "In which to be a PARENT".
WHOOPS! LOL
It's even the premise of the original poster - having a child as a single person. In this case, female.
Why does it have to be "conditions in this country"? She's correct; it's not political or "country conditions" now proven by this piece if you want to go there. Maybe people are just more self focused now and want all the bells and whistles they see on TV like $1000 iPhones , $35,000 cars and expensive kitchens. Maybe the reality of schlepping your baby with you every moment of the day including grocery shopping when your kid is sick or tired has sunken in. Maybe people aren't willing to be the 1 in 70 who has an autistic child. Maybe people's relationships with their parents have deteriorated to the point where they don't have the structure to support new families like in the "old days".
Couples have had children since time began but someone has to raise them and outsourcing kids to be raised by strangers for most hours of their day doesn't make any sense to me.
What's the point, then?
I waited until one of us could be at home. It happened to be me since my husband was in grad school and in fact I got pregnant the month he started his first job. So it was essentially a salary swap with just one person working. Then when my kid could enjoy and benefit from pre school at age 4 I went back to work PART TIME. Because I only had the one and there weren't other kids his age to socialize with in my neighborhood.
If you watch TV shows like House Hunters, all these young couples are looking at large houses with at least 3 bedrooms, multiple baths big yards. There ARE cheaper options or maybe they ARE planning families. They even turn their noses up at condos and townhouses and disparage the paint color LOL.
Is the issue that women aren't finding themselves in relationships conducive to having families? And why?
Aren't men interested in relationships/marriage and why?
I'd suggest we examine the War on Boys which has been going on for decades. There's even a book by that title. Anthropology is a real thing. As a mother of a boy, I know it to be true.
BTW there's more to life and raising kids than who's gonna baby sit them. Kids deserve enrichment and an interesting life with RELATIONSHIPS - and "stuff". Like meals together and other weird concepts that are out of style. Not an exhausted single mom struggling to stay away reading a book at bedtime - a bed time which is 3 hours later than it should be.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 09-22-2017 at 06:26 AM..
Maybe women just don't want to raise children alone outside of a strong marriage or at least a relationship.
I don't see where they even mention that and the state seems focused on or alluding to single women. What's the marriage rate in Finland?
It's ironic to put the "blame" and responsibility on females just because they do the actual physical delivery. I thought women were equal to men? And I thought same sex marriage was commonly accepted now? Are men just sperm donors?
A care package of crap and a couple months paid leave is supposed to make women run to have kids? SERIOUSLY? Apparently the political class has never had to shoulder the responsibility of parenthood alone for a minimum of 20 years but in reality - FOREVER.
I thought Finland was so "equal" yet, it's even in the opening statement. "In which to be a MOTHER".
Why isn't it "In which to be a PARENT".
WHOOPS! LOL
It's even the premise of the original poster - having a child as a single person. In this case, female.
Why does it have to be "conditions in this country"? She's correct; it's not political or "country conditions" now proven by this piece if you want to go there. Maybe people are just more self focused now and want all the bells and whistles they see on TV like $1000 iPhones , $35,000 cars and expensive kitchens. Maybe the reality of schlepping your baby with you every moment of the day including grocery shopping when your kid is sick or tired has sunken in. Maybe people aren't willing to be the 1 in 70 who has an autistic child.
Couples have had children since time began but someone has to raise them and outsourcing kids to be raised by strangers for most hours of their day doesn't make any sense to me.
What's the point, then?
I waited until one of us could be at home. It happened to be me since my husband was in grad school and in fact I got pregnant the month he started his first job. So it was essentially a salary swap with just one person working. Then when my kid could enjoy and benefit from pre school at age 4 I went back to work PART TIME. Because I only had the one and there weren't other kids his age to socialize with in my neighborhood.
If you watch TV shows like House Hunters, all these young couples are looking at large houses with at least 3 bedrooms, multiple baths big yards. There ARE cheaper options or maybe they ARE planning families. They even turn their noses up at condos and townhouses and disparage the paint color LOL.
Is the issue that women aren't finding themselves in relationships conducive to having families? And why?
Aren't men interested in relationships/marriage and why?
I'd suggest we examine the War on Boys which has been going on for decades. There's even a book by that title. Anthropology is a real thing. As a mother of a boy, I know it to be true.
Excellent points all. A low birthrate can be caused by many factors, and the desirability of pregnancy, or lack thereof, may not be the only one.
Its been talked about quite a bit here with some towns and municipalities trying to increase their birth rate by offering extra things like cash or trees planted in the baby's honour, there's been suggestions of a "birth-talkoo" (talkoo being a community work effort - so a community effort to have more children) by some people.
I think part of the problem is that women put off having children until later more and more these days and then fertility issues arise and not everyone wants to go through fertility treatment. Also less of a desire to have children - more and more are becoming child-free. And of course there's people that are concerned about the affect upon the planet as a whole as the earth's population is increasing so much and see immigration as a more environmental solution to the tax-payer issue.
I'm doing my bit though, pregnant with second child
Maybe women just don't want to raise children alone outside of a strong marriage or at least a relationship.
I don't see where they even mention that and the state seems focused on or alluding to single women. What's the marriage rate in Finland?
It's ironic to put the "blame" and responsibility on females just because they do the actual physical delivery. I thought women were equal to men? And I thought same sex marriage was commonly accepted now? Are men just sperm donors?
A care package of crap and a couple months paid leave is supposed to make women run to have kids? SERIOUSLY? Apparently the political class has never had to shoulder the responsibility of parenthood alone for a minimum of 20 years but in reality - FOREVER.
I thought Finland was so "equal" yet, it's even in the opening statement. "In which to be a MOTHER".
Why isn't it "In which to be a PARENT".
WHOOPS! LOL
It's even the premise of the original poster - having a child as a single person. In this case, female.
Why does it have to be "conditions in this country"? She's correct; it's not political or "country conditions" now proven by this piece if you want to go there. Maybe people are just more self focused now and want all the bells and whistles they see on TV like $1000 iPhones , $35,000 cars and expensive kitchens. Maybe the reality of schlepping your baby with you every moment of the day including grocery shopping when your kid is sick or tired has sunken in. Maybe people aren't willing to be the 1 in 70 who has an autistic child. Maybe people's relationships with their parents have deteriorated to the point where they don't have the structure to support new families like in the "old days".
Couples have had children since time began but someone has to raise them and outsourcing kids to be raised by strangers for most hours of their day doesn't make any sense to me.
What's the point, then?
I waited until one of us could be at home. It happened to be me since my husband was in grad school and in fact I got pregnant the month he started his first job. So it was essentially a salary swap with just one person working. Then when my kid could enjoy and benefit from pre school at age 4 I went back to work PART TIME. Because I only had the one and there weren't other kids his age to socialize with in my neighborhood.
If you watch TV shows like House Hunters, all these young couples are looking at large houses with at least 3 bedrooms, multiple baths big yards. There ARE cheaper options or maybe they ARE planning families. They even turn their noses up at condos and townhouses and disparage the paint color LOL.
BTW there's more to life and raising kids than who's gonna baby sit them. Kids deserve enrichment and an interesting life with RELATIONSHIPS - and "stuff". Like meals together and other weird concepts that are out of style. Not an exhausted single mom struggling to stay away reading a book at bedtime - a bed time which is 3 hours later than it should be.
Excellent points all. A low birthrate can be caused by many factors, and the desirability of pregnancy, or lack thereof, may not be the only one.
Thank you. In my opinion, the state is just trying to entrap females into becoming baby incubators and guardians to generate more citizen workers.
Just like they ignore men and think of them as sperm donors. Of which there is no shortage LOL.
I don't think you can raise a generation of women who are taught the state can be EVERYTHING you need - essentially your marital partner - then be surprised when they figure out that your fake spouse only throws some money at you like a job. Then to make matters worse, constrains you from REAL relationships in which the potential person doesn't want to take on being a parent to your state-sponsored kid.
I think we've actually tried that here and it's not working out so great.
Yeah, it's complicated.
ETA: And speaking of House Hunters - I just remembered the alleged popularity of those other concept shows: Tiny House. Millenials (mostly) talking about being "free" and on the road and spending their time doing activities not tied to a "house" and "payments". NOT exactly suggestive of planning for kids!
The irony of THAT show is the huge majority end up parking the mobile Tiny House on friends and family's PROPERTY they don't even own. LOL
Last edited by runswithscissors; 09-22-2017 at 09:19 AM..
It's more than being "family friendly." It's woman friendly. When women have the same career, education, and economic opportunities as men and a true equal status as men, they feel less of a need to become mothers. They and the culture are not defining their success based on motherhood. They are more able and allowed the opportunity to be fulfilled by accomplishments other than motherhood. I think a lot of women in the US have children because it's expected of them. Finland doesn't have those same expectations of women.
The article disproves your theory. It's entirely focused on convincing WOMEN to be parents. I actually find it insulting.
They expect them to be the parent as their main "job" while they oh so cutely "be fulfilled by accomplishments" or generate another headcount in the "worker" column.
"Isn't that precious? She's feeling "fulfilled".
LOL
It's a scam. You get to do TWO jobs for your entire life in exchange for some money.
Because women have the uterus. And obviously Finish men aren't beating down the doors to adopt children so they can be single parents. Or parents at all. And as someone actually from Finland pointed out, they don't really care which uterus generates the worker - hence the immigration push to increase populations over there. You get the actual immigrant/s and then they're guaranteed to have a bunch of kids because that's their culture. Then you can get chain migration, too. Which has turned into a hotbed of political drama over multiculturalism.
I remember reading they were considering a Bill requiring immigrants to have a specific guaranteed income level/job in order to at least save their social services from collapsing with so many unskilled people being migrated there. Even spouses of Finnish nationals. I don't know how it turned out or if it even went for a vote.
This isn't new. Merkel and the EU started it.
Also, most women just never randomly "felt the need to become mothers" as single women but you're completely leaving out the desire for a spouse and family component. A nuclear family. Why? Even in your most primitive human groups women aren't just randomly deciding to get pregnant and raise kids all alone. I think women used to have enough common sense to see the difficulty of that choice. Did it result in some not so great marriages? Maybe. Decisions made by BOTH spouses. Perhaps people should consider that choosing to live completely alone and independently for a lifetime is not a great choice either. And generating a kid to fill that gap isn't necessarily the solution. Even if you CAN put food on the table and pay for housing.
Last edited by runswithscissors; 09-22-2017 at 10:16 AM..
I think selflessness as a virtue is dying out. People look at having kids and say "What do I get?" The get for the cost is out of balance and therefore deemed not worthwhile. Family is no longer a prime value and no longer the structure of most societies. We are not far from just pulling sperm and eggs from people scientifically making good genetic mixes and generating babies in laboratories or factories to then be raised in groups by state sponsored and trained tutors/nannies whatever they will be called. Sounds appalling, but it is likely coming and it is not all bad. Conceptually there should be no one raised with abusive parents. No one will be richer or poorer than anyone else growing up. No one will get the advantage of better parents, better living conditions, better schools. Of course the only values and traditions passed n to future generations will be state approved values and traditions deemed suitable for all people. Cultural diversity will disappear, but then so will the bad sides of many cultures in raising children. I would be interesting to see whether love survives, but I will be dead before this is in full swing, so I do not get to see. It is clear to me though this is where we are going.
People get married at an ever later age
In 2016, the rise in the average age of women and men entering into their first marriage continued. The average age of women increased by 0.2 years and that of men by 0.3 years from the year before. The average age of women entering into their first marriage was 31.4 years and 33.7 years for men. The average age of women entering into their second marriage was 44.8 years and 47.6 years for men.
The number and relative share of first marriages went down from the year before, while the number of remarriages was higher than in the previous year. However, the annual changes were so small that the share of first marriages in all marriages entered into is still three-quarters. The relative share has remained at the same level throughout the early 2000s. Twenty-one per cent of all marriages contracted were second marriages, and close on four per cent third marriages.
According to Statistics Finland's data on population changes, 52,814 children were born in 2016. The number of births has now decreased for the sixth year in succession. The number of births was 2,658 children, i.e. 4.8 per cent fewer than in 2015. This yearly decrease is the highest since the beginning of the 1970s, when measured in relative terms.
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