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I find it comical that a majority of this forum wants to tell a 5-year old about intercourse, but then after TEN years experience with the topic, the parents still want to be in full control of every aspect of their child's relationships.
The hypocrisy is appalling.
Either you think kids are mature from an early age and should give up control early on or you think kids are irresponsible and should wait until they are mature enough to handle an adult topic.
I find it comical that a majority of this forum wants to tell a 5-year old about intercourse, but then after TEN years experience with the topic, the parents still want to be in full control of every aspect of their child's relationships.
The hypocrisy is appalling.
Either you think kids are mature from an early age and should give up control early on or you think kids are irresponsible and should wait until they are mature enough to handle an adult topic.
It is not both ways.
What on earth are you talking about? I knew all about sex at 5 years old. I didn't run out and have it! being knowledgable actually made me wait longer. It wasn't like I didn't have opportunities. And even at 15, my mother would tell me, whenever you have sex make sure it's with a person you love and please use protection. She didn't need to know when I had sex. She didn't need to be involved in me getting protection. But because of the open and HONEST discussions we had while I was growing up, I trusted her and told her when it was time for me to get protection. It wasn't a license to screw every guy that walked by me.
Like it or not, teens WILL have sex. Nothing you can do to stop it. The more you forbid it or make it taboo, the more you're pushing your kids towards it. Teens will do things to defy their parents...it's all in that crazy brain chemistry/insane hormones charging through their bodies.
I find it comical that a majority of this forum wants to tell a 5-year old about intercourse, but then after TEN years experience with the topic, the parents still want to be in full control of every aspect of their child's relationships.
The hypocrisy is appalling.
No idea who _or_ what you are talking about here. But I guess if the best you can do is scream "insane" at things and then talk about how funny you find it all - not many people are going to know what you are talking about.
I have no idea what your imagined link is between knowledge and control either. Giving a child knowledge of a topic at one age - and control over that topic at another age - is quite common as an approach to parenting. Why you feel this should magically be different on the topic of sex is unclear.
The hypocrisy is purely imaginary on your part it seems. What is clear however is that when asked for reasoning as to why you think a 5 year old or 7 year old should not be taught the basic knowledge of biological reproduction you offered - well nothing.
What on earth are you talking about? I knew all about sex at 5 years old. I didn't run out and have it! being knowledgable actually made me wait longer. It wasn't like I didn't have opportunities. And even at 15, my mother would tell me, whenever you have sex make sure it's with a person you love and please use protection. She didn't need to know when I had sex. She didn't need to be involved in me getting protection. But because of the open and HONEST discussions we had while I was growing up, I trusted her and told her when it was time for me to get protection. It wasn't a license to screw every guy that walked by me.
Like it or not, teens WILL have sex. Nothing you can do to stop it. The more you forbid it or make it taboo, the more you're pushing your kids towards it. Teens will do things to defy their parents...it's all in that crazy brain chemistry/insane hormones charging through their bodies.
There is NO REASON a 5-year old should know about sex.
You should wait until there is a reasonable chance of it happening to explain. Like 10 or 11 is fine. But 8 or under is insane.
A 5-year old cannot even understand the science involved. They just say they understand because they do not want to disappoint you.
Also, using protection is wrong. If you don't want a baby, you shouldn't have sex. I'm sorry your mom was a bad influence on you and never taught you to control your urges.
(I'm guessing when you want something in the store, you just buy it whether or not you can afford it and then complain when you cannot pay your bills. You learned that lesson from the idea of "protection")
If your mom wants any control on who you are dating, she should know when you had sex. Otherwise, she should give up all control. She should not be allowed to control who you date AND not know. That is totally unacceptable.
And you CAN stop teens from having sex. You can make it clear their whole life is over if they get pregnant and that they will never see their friends again because they will have no time because all their time has to be spent towards taking care of the baby.
There's no such thing as crazy brain chemistry. That is just something people who do not care about their kids tell themselves to justify their bad parenting.
No idea who _or_ what you are talking about here. But I guess if the best you can do is scream "insane" at things and then talk about how funny you find it all - not many people are going to know what you are talking about.
I have no idea what your imagined link is between knowledge and control either. Giving a child knowledge of a topic at one age - and control over that topic at another age - is quite common as an approach to parenting. Why you feel this should magically be different on the topic of sex is unclear.
The hypocrisy is purely imaginary on your part it seems. What is clear however is that when asked for reasoning as to why you think a 5 year old or 7 year old should not be taught the basic knowledge of biological reproduction you offered - well nothing.
If someone is not old enough to reproduce, there is no reason to tell them about it.
A 5-year old cannot get pregnant. Their sexual organs have not even developed yet.
A year or two early is fine, but SIX YEARS early? That's insane.
Why not teach a kid how to drive when they're 10?
Or their own credit card with real money when they're 12? See how that turns out.
There is NO REASON a 5-year old should know about sex.
I had the basics pretty much figured out by then, as I grew up on a farm.
It's not that big a deal unless you make it into a big deal. If a kid that age is curious it's better to give them a matter-of-fact, developmentally appropriate explanation than to lie or shut down the conversation. You don't want them getting wrong ideas.
There is NO REASON a 5-year old should know about sex.
No one here is saying they "should" know about it. But that does not mean there is not plenty of good reason why telling them about it in an ongoing way from an early age is actually a good thing.
What there is a lack of however is that - there is no reason they should _not_ know about it. You certainly are not offering a single one despite screeching at us how "insane" it all is. And in the total abscence of reasons _not_ to know about it then it is really up to individual parents when to start that education. And I think earlier is better.
a 5 year old is human and being human involves many basic biological processes universal to us all. I see no reason to maintain ignorance of those processes in a child at any age.
But the only one talking in terms of "shoulds" here is you. But despite throwing your "shoulds" out like assertion confetti you have not backed up a single "should" with any actual reasons or reasoning yet. And that is more than a little telling.
Is screeching "should" and "insane" at people all you got?
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Originally Posted by zesty2
A 5-year old cannot even understand the science involved. They just say they understand because they do not want to disappoint you.
First - they are not required to understand any complex science to understand the basics of biological reproduction. The basics - described in terms of seeds and joinings and made analagous to concepts like planting and growing - are more than basic enough for any 5 year old.
Second - perhaps you personally as a 5 year old lacked such comprehension but it would be unwise of you to assume what 5 year olds can and can not understand. They are sponges of knowledge and learning and can comprehend much more than you appear to want to pretend.
Third - understanding is not always required as a reason for installing knowledge. Sometimes when knowledge is put in place it remains in dormant situ as a lense through which other learning can come. And as further learning and comprehension comes - it can illuminate and active other dormant knowledge. Not all learning - you might be surprised to learn - involves or requires instant understanding of what is learned. Concepts and knowledge can be put in place and activated retrospectively.
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Originally Posted by zesty2
Also, using protection is wrong. If you don't want a baby, you shouldn't have sex. I'm sorry your mom was a bad influence on you and never taught you to control your urges.
Yea history has shown us what the concepts of abstinence only education has done in relation to sex. And it had the exact opposite effect to the one people perpetuating it claimed to want. It simply does not work - has never worked - and there is no real reasoning as to why it should have worked.
The one factor that has across the board shown benefits for reducing things like teen pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies in general in an early well grounded well rounded curriculum of sexual education.
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Originally Posted by zesty2
If someone is not old enough to reproduce, there is no reason to tell them about it.
There is no reason _not_ to tell them about it. Certainly no reasons coming from _you_ anyway where all you can do is screech the word "insane" as often as you can in the hope it will do the intellectual heavy lifting you are refusing to attempt.
But the link between giving a person knowledge - and the time when they can use that knowledge - is one you are entirely imagining. There is absolutely no reason anywhere at all to think that one should only give a person knowledge at the time when they might actually require it. We give people skills and knowledge in general before they ever require it.
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Originally Posted by zesty2
Why not teach a kid how to drive when they're 10?
Why not indeed. I already do. My 7 year old daughter knows how to change a tyre with me. She can do some basic work inside a car engine like switch a spark plug and change a headlight. She knows what red and green traffic lights mean. She understands the concept of right of way.
She knows that in wet or icy conditions that we use the brake sooner than in sunny dry conditions. She knows what an indicator is and what it is used for. She knows how to turn the hazard lights on and when to do so. She knows what the three pedals in a manual car do. She knows all about the horn and when to use it and when not (most adults seem not to even know this - happily beeping the horn when they see someone they know). She knows all about the handbrake.
If I crashed the car with her in it tomorrow and I was incapacitated and she was not - the first thing she would do would be to pull the hand brake - turn on the hazard lights - grab a phone if she can to call for help - and get out of the car and move to the nearest safest point.
Why does she know all this? Because unlike your nonsense - I do not see education on any topic as a single event where you sit down and say "Ok it is time to learn X now". Rather education on _all_ topics possible can be and should be an ongoing conversation over an extended period of time.
So damn right I will be teaching my children from age 5-6-7 the basics of driving and traffic law and procedures.
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Originally Posted by zesty2
Or their own credit card with real money when they're 12? See how that turns out.
Again why not? There are introductory and intermediate forms of credit cards in the world. There are pre-paid forms of credit cards for example. On your end it functions like a debit card (as in you load money on to it) but at the webshop end it looks to their computer system like a fully functional Visa or Mastercard Credit Card.
I see no reason when giving my daughter pocket money not to also give her such a card. And to teach her the economics of online shopping compared to real world shopping. And the difference between instant gratification and waiting for mail order. That that toy or food or clothing she wants she could pay more to have _now_ or she can order it online for cheaper prices but learn to have to wait for it to arrive.
All good lessons. Nothing wrong with it that I can see here either.
If someone is not old enough to reproduce, there is no reason to tell them about it.
A 5-year old cannot get pregnant. Their sexual organs have not even developed yet.
A year or two early is fine, but SIX YEARS early? That's insane.
Why not teach a kid how to drive when they're 10?
Or their own credit card with real money when they're 12? See how that turns out.
Why not start teaching a kid to drive when they're ten? You wouldn't throw them alone into the driver's seat of a F-150, but it doesn't hurt to start explaining the rules of the road, pointing out responsible and irresponsible drivers, showing them how to maintain a vehicle, etc. I wish more parents would - it'd be easier than trying to cram everything into the six months before they take their driver's tests, and hopefully the kid would really internalize the information more.
Same thing with a debit card - why not establish a monitored, modest account with the parent as a cosigner? Better to learn early that plastic money is real money, and to learn good spending habits, when the stakes are not so high, than to wait until the kid is off in the real world.
Anyway, sex isn't just about making human babies. As a biological process, it's relevant to a kid in the same way any other topic in the biological sciences is. If they can learn what a heart does, why not also learn what ovaries do? And it's quite relevant to topics such as understanding, say, the difference between a mammal and a fish, an animal versus a plant, etc.
Heck, I'm never going to the moon, and yet no one had any qualms about explaining what the moon is.
There is NO REASON a 5-year old should know about sex.
Is there some reason that they shouldn't?
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You should wait until there is a reasonable chance of it happening to explain. Like 10 or 11 is fine. But 8 or under is insane.
Why? We exposed our kids to cooking long before they were able to manage the stove and oven themselves or at all. We exposed them to firearms and the container they were locked in LONG before they were able to even touch them themselves. We never hid the dangerous lawn or construction tools. What's the difference?
When my son was 3, I was pregnant with our second. When he asked where it was and how it got there, was I to let him think that I pooped it out like excrement?
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A 5-year old cannot even understand the science involved. They just say they understand because they do not want to disappoint you.
I don't see why the basics of biology cannot be started before full understanding is achieved. I remember when I asked my son if he understood. He looked at me with a slacked jaw expression and said no. I said that's ok.You don't really need to right now. He responded with hey look a truck!
He did learn some important other things over the course of that and many other discussions. He earned that Mom and Dad can be trusted to tell him the truth. They learned that information is not scary.
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Also, using protection is wrong. If you don't want a baby, you shouldn't have sex. I'm sorry your mom was a bad influence on you and never taught you to control your urges.
If that is your moral code, then I suggest THAT should be the focus of the education rather than maintaining ignorance as a means of control. That protection exists, why it is wrong, what the sexual reality of humans is as you see it... They will be exposed to these topics. If you hide from them, they will, at best glean all kinds of misinformation. At worst, they will doubt and fear the unknown and not trust the single source of correct thinking, their parents.
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(I'm guessing when you want something in the store, you just buy it whether or not you can afford it and then complain when you cannot pay your bills. You learned that lesson from the idea of "protection")
Actually the lesson of protection is exactly the opposite, the weight of pros and cons as with any decision or judgement. Understanding the moral, emotional and physical consequences of actions. I don't see how ignorance is bliss.
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If your mom wants any control on who you are dating, she should know when you had sex. Otherwise, she should give up all control. She should not be allowed to control who you date AND not know. That is totally unacceptable.
I neither see how this is an all or nothing equation nor do I see the importance of control. The idea of parenting is about scaffolding learning and understanding so that eventually THEY can make correct decisions for themselves without control.
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And you CAN stop teens from having sex. You can make it clear their whole life is over if they get pregnant and that they will never see their friends again because they will have no time because all their time has to be spent towards taking care of the baby.
why would that be? I mean, personally, I have no desire to stop them from having sex. I suppose this is easy for me to say since both of them, having learned about the moral, emotional and practical pros and cons of same have no interest in speeding along sexual activity. But I fail to see pregnancy as a life terminating event. Heroine? Maybe. I sure would not wish that on anyone's kid. The idea that one can ruin their entire lives with 9 months of pregnancy is fear mongering. Fear mongering is dangerous. There are actions that cannot be remedied or amended. Speaking, for example, of the dangerous lawn implements, my son was playing knights with his sister using a sharp lawn tool. When I saw them, in addition to removing the item, I explained. I have always tried to connect you with remedy and amends when you make a mistake. Some things cannot be amended. If you were to accidentally connect this tool with your sister's head, there are no amends. She is dead. People do not come back from the dead. Maximum understanding was demonstrated both by his dead white face and the fact that he never touched the lawn implements again.
The same goes for pregnancy. What would happen if you got pregnant in middle school. For my husband and I, abortion is not a moral deterrent. But how would you feel being instrumental or engaged in that morally challenging decision FOR YOURSELF? Do you think you are mature or wise enough for that decision? How would you feel about walking around school being talked about as the jerk off guy who got some girl pregnant, or the easy girl who got pregnant? How would you feel about going through labor and delivery as a teen? (They know about my labor and delivery. They know what it looks like.) How would you like either giving up the fruit of your body and love to someone else to parent for the rest of their lives or change your entire life as a teen to support and raise the baby, toddler, preschooler, elementary, middle, high, college... I made sure that they understood that parenting is for LIFE, and thinking needs to extend past the baby stage where to many teens seem to get stuck.
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There's no such thing as crazy brain chemistry. That is just something people who do not care about their kids tell themselves to justify their bad parenting.
There is such as thing as peer pressure, weird social constructs of love/sex quid pro quo that seems to happen over and over the generations. And there is basic human biology of drive. There is nothing crazy about Oxycontin, dopamine and endorphins that sex and love can generate. There is nothing crazy about educating kids to what love is and how those feelings are fleeting and not the best thing to attempt to develop a relationship on.
I am sorry you feel so comfortable castigating parents of different views. Your approach seems rather lacking in forethought and reason. It's ok for me since all it takes is looking at my teens to know that they are the justification for my parenting. They are among the most mature and capable teens I have ever known.
Funny story about lack of understanding, early education for kids. My son walked in on DH and I one time. He was pretty little. He closed the door and turned the tv on in the living room. I put my bathrobe on and asked him if he knew what he just saw. He nodded. I asked him if he had any questions or concerns. He asked wasn't Dad heavy? Out of the mouths of babes! THAT was what he was worried about. I explain that no he was not and that he held himself up with his arms. Ok. Back to regularly scheduled cartoons thinking no more about it. Question asked and adequately answered. Mom, can I have some cereal? Sure, love.
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