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Old Today, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
83,188 posts, read 95,861,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItIsWritten. View Post
It doesn't matter how many of us had these kinds of jobs. It matters THEY HAD A JOB WHERE THEY COULD DO THIS. Living next door, and them being friends with my son, yes I know they rushed home. They worked 1/2 mile away

You seem to be having some serious issues with this, balking at every turn. Why?

People go visit unannounced. Don't listen to these "experts" online. You may need to call CPS, you may not.

Yes there are a lot of different circumstances in the world.


What can go wrong will? That is an interesting comment since my neighbors did just fine with this arrangement. That is a false assumption. We are all concerned about what MIGHT happen, no one can say what WILL Happen. That is being disingenuous.
Why? For one thing, Occam's Razor, IOW, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. (Note bold, italics, underline, color)
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor
"Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the simpler one is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is. Occam's razor applies especially in the philosophy of science, but also more generally." Again, note emphasis.
If, to make this a safe situation, you have to assume that there is some "mystery person" who no one has ever seen or heard of in the house, it's unlikely to be the case. Ditto if you have to assume the person bringing the kids home is really supposed to stay there, or that the kids are really much older than you think. If you have to assume that one person is working at home and just can't go pick the kids up at school when that was never stated and the OP has seen the parents both leave, and the mother return with the baby, you're reaching (generic you, not you personally). Ditto for assuming these very young kids know how to use all sorts of technology, that the parents have webcams all over the house, that they work close enough to get home quickly if there is a problem, and that the kids would notify them if there were a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Actually, the counselor probably couldn't report unless s/he had some first-hand knowledge. S/he might send the police for a welfare check, though.
After I posted the above last night I went upstairs to go to bed. Brushing my teeth, much like Archimedes in the bathtub, it occurred to me I phrased that wrong. Here in Colorado, anyone can report anything, AFAIK. However, the counselor probably wouldn't have to report this if told by the OP, because s/he hasn't seen any evidence of it. So she might be able to advise the OP.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; Today at 08:19 AM..
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Old Today, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
5,111 posts, read 1,992,907 times
Reputation: 10997
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
There are single celled organisms better than those whose response to child neglect is extortion. Not hard to be supercilious when the bar is soooo low.
You should see how I deal with neighbors who don't mow their lawns.
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Old Today, 08:17 AM
 
Location: East Coast
2,302 posts, read 1,291,045 times
Reputation: 3227
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
I'd call CPS.

This is beyond negligent.
This is the worst possible thing you could do. It has been shown again and again that children who are removed due to negligence have worse outcomes than children who have not been removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ItIsWritten. View Post
Just go over and start visiting with the kids. Ignore anyone who tries to discourage the clear solution.

Don't call CPS. I say that only because of my experience as a Foster Parent and working there temporarily. Most kids go to institutional like settings where they sleep together on mattresses on the floor not watched at all for most of the day. There are a ton of kids crammed into one huge room because there are never enough foster parents like us. It is HELLA traumatic.

The risk of what might happen when their alone needs to be weighed. I suggest you check on them, your daughter or whoever and do this regularly as you can. Ensure the kids have your telephone # and feel free to come over to your house at any time in which they need or want you. Kids like to be alone for a while, they're probably just watching a movie.

I am not justifying their actions but weighing what outcome is best for the children. CPS isn't it from what youve posted. Good luck. Again, so nice of you to care. The world needs more people like you
Something along these lines would be better. Let the parents know that you and your daughter are home and available in case of any emergency or even for non emergencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bitey View Post
I'm all for nosy busybodies minding their own business, but 4 and 5 is way too young to be left home alone for more than maybe two minutes at a time. Absolutely try to get involved. If your daughter is willing to do it without pay, by all means approach and let them know. Tell them you couldn't help but notice that their kids are (probably) being left home alone, and that you're concerned for the kids' safety and welfare of the entire family, lest they be separated by CPS if they're found out.

Unless the kids are in imminent danger, don't listen to the people who want you to call CPS as a first resort and likely ruin this family's lives if their worst crime was being stuck between a rock and a hard place re: child care. That is almost guaranteed to be far more traumatic for the kids than being left along for a couple hours a day, especially if they're accustomed to it by now. Give the parents a better alternative first. If they turn you down, mention that you would then have a moral obligation to contact CPS. That might motivate them to change their minds.


Most of those people will simply contact CPS themselves -- police and the school in particular may well be obligated by law to contact them.
Exactly. CPS can destroy the children's lives and the entire family. The police and the school would notify CPS.


It always amazes me how people seem to think CPS is magical, and somehow can create a perfect parenting situation for all children. Except for when there is actual physical and sexual abuse, they make things worse. (And even when there is physical and sexual abuse, they still sometimes manage to make a bad situation even worse.)

CPS should be called only when there is reason to believe the children really are in danger and are actually being abused.

Here, it sounds like there is no real reason to believe that the children are actually being abused. It is amazing how terrible the childcare situations are in most of the U.S. So frequently childcare is either entirely unavailable, or is so costly as to be out of reach for many families. If the children are capable of using the phone, and they have this reliable transportation system to bring them home from school and an adult has made sure they make it into the house, the kids are probably fine. Years ago, when I was a kid, there were many, many so-called "latchkey kids" who were home alone even at 5 or 6 years old.

There is so much fear of what can happen if a child happens to be at home alone. But there should probably be more fear of what happens to those children if they were left in the care of bad people -- kids are abused by people in daycares, especially in home daycares. Probably more frequently than kids die in a fire when they ar home alone.

It's also entirely possible the kids do have another neighbor or someone else who lives nearby who they can call if there is any sort of emergency.

The best way to approach this situation is to let the parents know that you are around and available to assist.
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Old Today, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
83,188 posts, read 95,861,795 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I ran a daycare. 4 and 5 year old kids are not safe alone for any amount of time. This is not low grade risk. This is high grade risk. Act accordingly.
Thank you for posting that.
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Old Today, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Northern California
271 posts, read 77,748 times
Reputation: 428
During our stint as foster parents, almost all of our children were worse off getting involved in the system.

We took the kids others didn't want. Less than 10% of the kids went to actual foster parents. Most were in group homes, receiving homes, some institutional like setting. The majority of foster parents were single parents, otherwise they went to the receiving home or very dangerous group homes. 12year olds have no business being with 4 year olds. There are very few "safe" group homes. Sometimes normal kids are put with very danger out kids because there is no where else for them to go. The foster parents are often Transgendered, or flaunt some sexual vice as their identity. Forget the traditional foster family, those are rare.

Many of those parents you would not want your children with. They re single parents doing it for the paycheck just to get by. At best they will be ignored, snapped at, fed cheap crap food, told to stay in the bedroom for hours or treated so bad that's their choice. Anything happens, the system considers these kids damaged so EXPECT them to mis-behave. There is no time to interview or investigate these foster homes after the initial certification. Social worker drops off your kids and many months go by until you ever see her again. The good ones return calls but are so bogged down with HUGE caseloads you don't call unless someone is almost dying. Literally. That's a exaggeration but not by much.

Regular visits to the receiving home opened our eyes. These kids we comforted due to the sexual abuse and stuff that happened to them IN THE RECEIVING HOME. Much abuse is done at the hands of other children.

I had to look up psychiatric meds constantly. Spent my entire day doing this though it wasn't my job description. Their psychiatrist was over 80 yrs old, had his hours cut. NICE NICE fellow who had no idea he was getting dementia. So meds were no doubt, prescribed which shouldn't be prescribed together. It was AWFUL. No doubt children died. Sorry but that is my belief. This is why I quit this job. These kids would act up, suddenly get a diagnosis, no Doctor around, often they didn't even see a Doctor. Yet were prescribed psychotropic meds.

here is a fact- We were certified with 10 other couples. And a lot more single people. Two of those other "couples" were busted for sexual abuse. The Foster parents THEMSELVES are at a much higher risk of being dangerous. Why? because they SEEK these kids out via becoming foster parents. Their level of depravity is FAR HIGHER than the average joe child molester. They go so far that even the system starts noticing, while the behaviors were there, they were ignored. They must've been there because it's the parents fault...somehow. It is normally OTHER foster parents who bust them. Telling the workers this guy or lady, I get a real bad feeling from. They THEY ARE TOLD to do the actual investigation. Paired up with them to babysit their kids. Visit unannounced. There is no time for the Worker to do it. The GOOD Workers have HUGE caseloads and work many unpaid hours.


CPS is very dangerous. I worked there temporarily. Their staff, the majority of Workers, are incompetent. They have authority trips. No one with half a brain will GENERALLY work there. Low pay, long long hours. Lied to by everyone. I stayed at answering the phone but otherwise, the rest was just a total mess. Urine tests were done, drug tests they're known as, and not placed in the fridge. I was in such a hurry once I almost placed someone else name on their cup. TOTAL ZOO. As a new person, I put the urine in the staff fridge and co-workers were angry with me. Where the other fridge was I had no clue, I was EXHAUSTED. No proper training whatsoever, they just threw me into a den of wolves to learn on my own. There were 5-10 urine cups just sitting on a table. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO GO INTO THE REFRIGERATOR. Otherwise it is possible the test results will be skewed. Yet cups sit there for days on end.

I wish this was the exception. But since moving, our neighbor was a CPS worker high up in the dept of a neighboring County. Same thing. No $$ to fix the system. It all goes to the higher up supervisors


We all know 4-5 yr olds have no business being left alone. That is not the question. Nor is it who can evaluate their development better. We all KNOW a four year olds level to ENOUGH degree.


The fact is YOU NEED TO WEIGH IT OUT. And THE FACT IS, it is more likely two 4-5 yr olds who are trained correctly will fair BETTER with otherwise decent parents than their lifelong trauma of LIKELY experience in the foster care system. This is a TEMPORARY situation as these kids will grow up. The TRAUMA from foster care, AT IT"S BEST SCENARIO, IS ALMOAT AWAYS GUARANTEED TO BE PERMANENT. NOT TEMPORARY. These kids show any sign of resistance to their new foster parents and the chance they are suddenly "diagnosed" with a disorder is MUCH HIGHER.
They drug these kids to keep them in line so foster parents can manage them. I won't even go into all of the identity theft. Sure not everyone but it is MUCH HIGHER the kids social security # will be stolen than if they stayed with their own family.

YES PEOPLE. YOUR OWN CHILDREN may act up in foster care to where otherwise, they would not WITH YOU. It is VERY TRAUMATIC. These psychotropic drugs CAN alter their brains for years or for life. Per my son who has a masters and bachelors degree and wants to be a physical therapist.

This is the reason when you make that call, sometimes kids ARE NOT REMOVED. Because the worker WEIGHED what was best for the children. Not a bunch of uneducated people who are experts at childhood development. The call never results in an innocent verdict wiped from the record. It is only PILED ON to any other calls to the emergency line. It can only be "substantiated" or "unsubstantiated". No one is ever truly cleared, even if they are innocent


GO OVER and visit your neighbors of all ages. DO NOT listen to their parents. They are in a tough situation and if they have an sense about them, will be kind to you for visiting. BECOME THEIR FRIEND. Then YOU can now for sure, more of how to handle it. But if you are next door, and just sit there calling on others to take care of the situation, don't moan when things don't go YOUR WAY since you lack the knowledge to know much due to avoiding helping these small children.

Last edited by ItIsWritten.; Today at 09:53 AM..
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Old Today, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
83,188 posts, read 95,861,795 times
Reputation: 29769
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagoliz View Post
This is the worst possible thing you could do. It has been shown again and again that children who are removed due to negligence have worse outcomes than children who have not been removed.



Something along these lines would be better. Let the parents know that you and your daughter are home and available in case of any emergency or even for non emergencies.


Exactly. CPS can destroy the children's lives and the entire family. The police and the school would notify CPS.


It always amazes me how people seem to think CPS is magical, and somehow can create a perfect parenting situation for all children. Except for when there is actual physical and sexual abuse, they make things worse. (And even when there is physical and sexual abuse, they still sometimes manage to make a bad situation even worse.)

CPS should be called only when there is reason to believe the children really are in danger and are actually being abused.

Here, it sounds like there is no real reason to believe that the children are actually being abused. It is amazing how terrible the childcare situations are in most of the U.S. So frequently childcare is either entirely unavailable, or is so costly as to be out of reach for many families. If the children are capable of using the phone, and they have this reliable transportation system to bring them home from school and an adult has made sure they make it into the house, the kids are probably fine. Years ago, when I was a kid, there were many, many so-called "latchkey kids" who were home alone even at 5 or 6 years old.

There is so much fear of what can happen if a child happens to be at home alone. But there should probably be more fear of what happens to those children if they were left in the care of bad people -- kids are abused by people in daycares, especially in home daycares. Probably more frequently than kids die in a fire when they ar home alone.

It's also entirely possible the kids do have another neighbor or someone else who lives nearby who they can call if there is any sort of emergency.

The best way to approach this situation is to let the parents know that you are around and available to assist.
Calling CPS does not automatically mean the children will be removed from the home. In point of fact, CPS' philosophy is usually to keep families together, even when the parents have demonstrated they are not fit. These are stories that make the news, as in "CPS called 10 times, kids never removed and now dead."

Of course these kids are in danger! They're being locked into a house for two hours at ages 4 and 5. CPS does not just handle abuse, they handle neglect as well, and that is what this is.

All this about how bad some childcare is has nothing to do with very young children being left alone.

This is old, but addresses your assumptions. https://academic.oup.com/jpepsy/article/31/2/184/972079
"Results from this study indicate attendance at child care may offer a slight protection from risk for child injury. "

I have read similar elsewhere, but nothing's popping up right now on Google.
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Old Today, 10:03 AM
 
4,276 posts, read 1,656,484 times
Reputation: 12794
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItIsWritten. View Post
During our stint as foster parents, almost all of our children were worse off getting involved in the system.
I don't know where you worked, but this kind of thing will not get children removed from the home.

This will result in a "services" case in my county.

That is, CPS would monitor the system, probably require a protective parenting class (because these parents are taking a huge risk), and then they would be released from services and the case would be closed after a year.

I don't know why you have to force some parents to parent, where others just do it naturally and willingly. Why in the world you have to tell a married pair of parents that you can't leave a 4 and 5 year old alone for hours at a time, every work day.

But yeah. Sometimes, you have to come at parents with the law at your side, and force them to do what they know by watching others they should be doing.

But yes, foster care is extremely traumatic for any child. They're almost always "happier" left in the home with the adults they are bonded with. Because that's how kid's brains work - they bond to adults in close proximity to them. So it's awful to remove them. And in my county, it's only done if the caregiver is absolutely unable and unwilling to parent. As many times as I've been in family court, I've never ever seen rights severed where the parent still wants full custody. I'm sure it happens, I've never seen it. I've seen many parents who fight for the right to visit when it's convenient for them, or have the kids visit from time to time, but I've never seen a parent actually advocating for full time custody, and have them terminated.
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Old Today, 10:43 AM
 
2,945 posts, read 2,703,755 times
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Default maybe start with...

Talk to your neighbor! Friendly, not accusatory...

"Hey there, I couldn't help but notice your girls being home alone until you get home? If you want we'd gladly help out, my daughter could hang out with them and do her homework if you'd like. I know how expensive childcare is and at least they are together, but maybe it would ease your mind if we kept an eye on them?"

This is what I'd do personally... you never know, this could be a big relief and (they should) take you up on your offer. However, if you get a sense they don't give a crap, or if they appear "off", then I'd inquire with authorities... maybe start with the school. 4 and 5 are way too young, 7 and 8 iffy... by 9, well... I WAS BABY SITTING!
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Old Today, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Northern California
271 posts, read 77,748 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I don't know where you worked, but this kind of thing will not get children removed from the home.

This will result in a "services" case in my county.

That is, CPS would monitor the system, probably require a protective parenting class (because these parents are taking a huge risk), and then they would be released from services and the case would be closed after a year.

I don't know why you have to force some parents to parent, where others just do it naturally and willingly. Why in the world you have to tell a married pair of parents that you can't leave a 4 and 5 year old alone for hours at a time, every work day.

But yeah. Sometimes, you have to come at parents with the law at your side, and force them to do what they know by watching others they should be doing.

But yes, foster care is extremely traumatic for any child. They're almost always "happier" left in the home with the adults they are bonded with. Because that's how kid's brains work - they bond to adults in close proximity to them. So it's awful to remove them. And in my county, it's only done if the caregiver is absolutely unable and unwilling to parent. As many times as I've been in family court, I've never ever seen rights severed where the parent still wants full custody. I'm sure it happens, I've never seen it. I've seen many parents who fight for the right to visit when it's convenient for them, or have the kids visit from time to time, but I've never seen a parent actually advocating for full time custody, and have them terminated.
You obviously have never worked in CPS nor understand the mechanics regarding what you speak.

With all due respect, much of this makes no sense and it would take too long to correct your lack of knowledge and misunderstandings but thanks for the time to reply and info on family court.

When we did foster care, I felt it needed to be done with the child AND their parents. Though illegal, I was their visitation monitor so I got to know their parents. We kept in contact with the entire family. Continued to be friends with most of our kids families having them over for dinner. I felt it kept them out of the system to have this support for years afterwards. Parents still messed up to some degree but not to a degree where the kids were better off in the system.

None of our kids went back in the system. My belief is their parents, the entire family, needed a support system, not the system they got. Classes are just too informal though they help

To this day, if I felt one was in trouble, I would get re-certified really fast. Call CPS, report and offer to take them in again.

.
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Old Today, 10:55 AM
 
12,352 posts, read 11,597,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ItIsWritten. View Post
During our stint as foster parents, almost all of our children were worse off getting involved in the system.

We took the kids others didn't want. Less than 10% of the kids went to actual foster parents. Most were in group homes, receiving homes, some institutional like setting. The majority of foster parents were single parents, otherwise they went to the receiving home or very dangerous group homes. 12year olds have no business being with 4 year olds. There are very few "safe" group homes. Sometimes normal kids are put with very danger out kids because there is no where else for them to go. The foster parents are often Transgendered, or flaunt some sexual vice as their identity. Forget the traditional foster family, those are rare.

Many of those parents you would not want your children with. They re single parents doing it for the paycheck just to get by. At best they will be ignored, snapped at, fed cheap crap food, told to stay in the bedroom for hours or treated so bad that's their choice. Anything happens, the system considers these kids damaged so EXPECT them to mis-behave. There is no time to interview or investigate these foster homes after the initial certification. Social worker drops off your kids and many months go by until you ever see her again. The good ones return calls but are so bogged down with HUGE caseloads you don't call unless someone is almost dying. Literally. That's a exaggeration but not by much.

Regular visits to the receiving home opened our eyes. These kids we comforted due to the sexual abuse and stuff that happened to them IN THE RECEIVING HOME. Much abuse is done at the hands of other children.

I had to look up psychiatric meds constantly. Spent my entire day doing this though it wasn't my job description. Their psychiatrist was over 80 yrs old, had his hours cut. NICE NICE fellow who had no idea he was getting dementia. So meds were no doubt, prescribed which shouldn't be prescribed together. It was AWFUL. No doubt children died. Sorry but that is my belief. This is why I quit this job. These kids would act up, suddenly get a diagnosis, no Doctor around, often they didn't even see a Doctor. Yet were prescribed psychotropic meds.

here is a fact- We were certified with 10 other couples. And a lot more single people. Two of those other "couples" were busted for sexual abuse. The Foster parents THEMSELVES are at a much higher risk of being dangerous. Why? because they SEEK these kids out via becoming foster parents. Their level of depravity is FAR HIGHER than the average joe child molester. They go so far that even the system starts noticing, while the behaviors were there, they were ignored. They must've been there because it's the parents fault...somehow. It is normally OTHER foster parents who bust them. Telling the workers this guy or lady, I get a real bad feeling from. They THEY ARE TOLD to do the actual investigation. Paired up with them to babysit their kids. Visit unannounced. There is no time for the Worker to do it. The GOOD Workers have HUGE caseloads and work many unpaid hours.


CPS is very dangerous. I worked there temporarily. Their staff, the majority of Workers, are incompetent. They have authority trips. No one with half a brain will GENERALLY work there. Low pay, long long hours. Lied to by everyone. I stayed at answering the phone but otherwise, the rest was just a total mess. Urine tests were done, drug tests they're known as, and not placed in the fridge. I was in such a hurry once I almost placed someone else name on their cup. TOTAL ZOO. As a new person, I put the urine in the staff fridge and co-workers were angry with me. Where the other fridge was I had no clue, I was EXHAUSTED. No proper training whatsoever, they just threw me into a den of wolves to learn on my own. There were 5-10 urine cups just sitting on a table. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO GO INTO THE REFRIGERATOR. Otherwise it is possible the test results will be skewed. Yet cups sit there for days on end.

I wish this was the exception. But since moving, our neighbor was a CPS worker high up in the dept of a neighboring County. Same thing. No $$ to fix the system. It all goes to the higher up supervisors


We all know 4-5 yr olds have no business being left alone. That is not the question. Nor is it who can evaluate their development better. We all KNOW a four year olds level to ENOUGH degree.


The fact is YOU NEED TO WEIGH IT OUT. And THE FACT IS, it is more likely two 4-5 yr olds who are trained correctly will fair BETTER with otherwise decent parents than their lifelong trauma of LIKELY experience in the foster care system. This is a TEMPORARY situation as these kids will grow up. The TRAUMA from foster care, AT IT"S BEST SCENARIO, IS ALMOAT AWAYS GUARANTEED TO BE PERMANENT. NOT TEMPORARY. These kids show any sign of resistance to their new foster parents and the chance they are suddenly "diagnosed" with a disorder is MUCH HIGHER.
They drug these kids to keep them in line so foster parents can manage them. I won't even go into all of the identity theft. Sure not everyone but it is MUCH HIGHER the kids social security # will be stolen than if they stayed with their own family.

YES PEOPLE. YOUR OWN CHILDREN may act up in foster care to where otherwise, they would not WITH YOU. It is VERY TRAUMATIC. These psychotropic drugs CAN alter their brains for years or for life. Per my son who has a masters and bachelors degree and wants to be a physical therapist.

This is the reason when you make that call, sometimes kids ARE NOT REMOVED. Because the worker WEIGHED what was best for the children. Not a bunch of uneducated people who are experts at childhood development. The call never results in an innocent verdict wiped from the record. It is only PILED ON to any other calls to the emergency line. It can only be "substantiated" or "unsubstantiated". No one is ever truly cleared, even if they are innocent


GO OVER and visit your neighbors of all ages. DO NOT listen to their parents. They are in a tough situation and if they have an sense about them, will be kind to you for visiting. BECOME THEIR FRIEND. Then YOU can now for sure, more of how to handle it. But if you are next door, and just sit there calling on others to take care of the situation, don't moan when things don't go YOUR WAY since you lack the knowledge to know much due to avoiding helping these small children.
OMG, *GASP* - not the TRANSGENDERS! HIDE THE CHILDREN!

Sadly, your entire post is cast into question with that little reveal about your true nature.
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