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Mentioning parents who reject gay kids is not germane to my point; I am citing examples of heinous behavior. That a subset of parents considers being gay to be "heinous" is not my point. ALL agree infant torture is heinous. I'm only speaking of acts all would class as heinous without debate.
I agree with you I don't understand the parents who WOULD class being gay as heinous any more than I understand how Albert Fish's parents would still love him (if they did, who knows).
So why didnt you clarify this in your topic title, ? That you were speaking directly about "acts of Heinous results" .
Bottom line and has been studied, most MOTHERS are more apt to STILL LOVE their off spring long after the discovery of crimes or acts that YOU deem UNFIT for society worthiness.
Some humans are capable of looking at the totality of a person and not deeming them totally corrupt or unworthy. Though a few Humans have walked this earth that were deserving of a cell for protection against humanity.
The title stands as a broad set of dynamics . The reality though for those who understand and emote Loving acts is that one can love a person and dislike their action. The totality of a person is NOT based on one act ....
So why didnt you clarify this in your topic title, ? That you were speaking directly about "acts of Heinous results" .
Bottom line and has been studied, most MOTHERS are more apt to STILL LOVE their off spring long after the discovery of crimes or acts that YOU deem UNFIT for society worthiness.
Some humans are capable of looking at the totality of a person and not deeming them totally corrupt or unworthy. Though a few Humans have walked this earth that were deserving of a cell for protection against humanity.
The title stands as a broad set of dynamics . The reality though for those who understand and emote Loving acts is that one can love a person and dislike their action. The totality of a person is NOT based on one act ....
I didn't make the topic, I am not the OP.
If you were the Mother of the BTK killer would you love him? Hitler? Arthur Shawcross?
If your son was the father (and killer) of 5 month old Baby Brianna whom he sexually tortured (and filmed it) to death?
I'm honestly asking. If you read the autopsy report on Victoria Climbie would you then say you love your child who was the perp? Maybe you can help me understand how this can be.
So why didnt you clarify this in your topic title, ? That you were speaking directly about "acts of Heinous results" .
Bottom line and has been studied, most MOTHERS are more apt to STILL LOVE their off spring long after the discovery of crimes or acts that YOU deem UNFIT for society worthiness.
Some humans are capable of looking at the totality of a person and not deeming them totally corrupt or unworthy. Though a few Humans have walked this earth that were deserving of a cell for protection against humanity.
The title stands as a broad set of dynamics . The reality though for those who understand and emote Loving acts is that one can love a person and dislike their action. The totality of a person is NOT based on one act ....
What I found reading here is that unless you love and condone their wrongdoing.. die for them.. blame LE or complainants.. YOU are a failure.. Turing your back on one's child only happens IF YOU as a parent DIDN't do your job teaching them right from wrong.. You can support the child yet NOT condone their behaviours that got them into problems with LE. Lying for your child is nothing more than condoning his/her actions> IF proof is shown.
Most parent's know their child's tendencies.. andIF zero intervention or corrective measure ( and NO do not mean corporal punishment!) Young people will do what ever they want> IF no boundaries or informed by parent's!
I worked overtime with my boyz.. knew full well local "Bad sorts" took advantage of him..and set him up.. BUT his Core values knew it.. Points.. Love you CHILD does NOT mean you have to accept horrible behaviours!! Hold your kid accountable! Too many adults today believe they can get away with felonious behaviour..because THEY got bailed out of being held responsible... Guess my answer is Always love your child..BUT do NOT CONDONE BAD behaviours.. IF they never get held accountable in their childhood >They never learned!!
ETA~~ With that love it's okay to say.. They did something horrific.. and maybe I should have done better!! It's more of a disappointment and sense of failure than NOT loving that child.. OF course.. some parent's don't look beyond that "Little Box" !
If you were the Mother of the BTK killer would you love him? Hitler? Arthur Shawcross?
If your son was the father (and killer) of 5 month old Baby Brianna whom he sexually tortured (and filmed it) to death?
I'm honestly asking. If you read the autopsy report on Victoria Climbie would you then say you love your child who was the perp? Maybe you can help me understand how this can be.
How can we honestly answer those questions? I strongly doubt any respondent has faced the issue. We've raised,and loved our children for years, and its inconceivable to me that any of my sons could do anything horrific. I'm sure the other parents who have responded feel the same.
The only instance I can think of that might turn me away from a child of mine is if they should do grievous harm to another member of my family.
If you were the Mother of the BTK killer would you love him? Hitler? Arthur Shawcross?
If your son was the father (and killer) of 5 month old Baby Brianna whom he sexually tortured (and filmed it) to death?
I'm honestly asking. If you read the autopsy report on Victoria Climbie would you then say you love your child who was the perp? Maybe you can help me understand how this can be.
I don't know if it can be as simple as you are making it. Some of those perps had parent(s) who didn't love them to begin with, did that contribute to who they became? Some of them were mentally ill, do you stop loving a child because they are ocd, schizophrenic, borderline, antisocial, where is the line at which you stop loving them because of the illness?
I don't know if it can be as simple as you are making it. Some of those perps had parent(s) who didn't love them to begin with, did that contribute to who they became? Some of them were mentally ill, do you stop loving a child because they are ocd, schizophrenic, borderline, antisocial, where is the line at which you stop loving them because of the illness?
The line is when they harm their victim. Yes for me it's that simple. I know for many, it isn't.
Is there something a child could do to make a parent turn their back on them?
I don't think 100% unconditional love exists...
Let me say absolutely yes , and let me put it this way and tell you what my Mother told me. Son I will not tolerate a " criminal Son " so if you become involved in criminal activity I'm calling the police myself. Son I love you with all of my heart , but i'm writing the judge a personal letter every single day telling him to give you the longest sentence possible.
And when you are sentenced to State Prison I'm standing up before the jury and the judge and the innocent family and telling the judge your Honor please give "my Son " the longest sentence possible. Then because I love you "with all of my heart "I'm going to look you straight in the eye and tell you that I'm going to visit you everyday in prison throughout your whole sentence.
Unconditional love does not hide the Pain , Hurt , Dirty Deeds the Sins and the Evil that people do , it just tells people that someone is going to stand with them in anything that they go through.
I am almost a 67 year young man , and I have never spent one day in jail or prison , mama raised me right.!!!!
Last edited by Howest2008; 05-31-2018 at 07:44 PM..
It is a tad fascinating; I think perhaps the parents who doggedly "love" the aberrations that sprung from their loins perhaps are doing so from an inability to face that fact that a human they created is more deserving of their disgust than their love. They'd have no problem hating and being disgusted by the perp who torture killed their kid -as would all of us- but if THEIR kid does it those feelings are absent?
I honestly don't get how that's possible. If a human commits hideous evil acts that should trigger loathing in all, even in that human's parents. I know I'm presenting it simplistically; in my head it IS simplistic. I do think it's pathological to not feel disgust and loathing, fruit of one's loins notwithstanding.
You're right - it is an interesting conversation. I understand your logic and it makes sense. But we are talking about an emotion called love which can sometimes neither make sense nor have logic to it. Examples: people who fall in love with and marry incarcerated criminals, many of them educated to know better. People who love and treat animals better than they do humans. Kind, loving people who go to war and slaughter strangers because they've decided it will better protect their families. Or others who in the name of peace and love for all mankind would allow their families to be attacked before they would raise a hand against another to protect them. There must be many reading here who could understand what seem to be poor choices in the name of love.
Since you have a scientific mind one way to think about it is that perhaps for some parents the instinct to bond with the child is so strong (through a chemical reaction) that it lasts a lifetime? Just speculating here. We do know that that bonding exists otherwise I suspect that most babies would have been tossed out of the cave shortly after birth.
Can't you hear it? "That thing! It smells, makes noise, eats but doesn't do any of the work and keeps me up half the night." LOL. It must have been only someone's love that saw any worth at all in the infants.
Let me offer a flip side suggestion to your "Parents who 'doggedly' love." What if the parents who reject a child are actually the ones who can't tolerate reality? The only way they can continue to exist as sane individuals is to pretend they had nothing to do with the violent one?
I imagine the spectrum runs the gamut from sane to crazy on both sides of the fence. But assuredly, like all human behavior, it has an explanation that involves the most comfortable existence and not everyone who makes a choice different than the majority is crazy.
You're right - it is an interesting conversation. I understand your logic and it makes sense. But we are talking about an emotion called love which can sometimes neither make sense nor have logic to it. Examples: people who fall in love with and marry incarcerated criminals, many of them educated to know better. People who love and treat animals better than they do humans. Kind, loving people who go to war and slaughter strangers because they've decided it will better protect their families. Or others who in the name of peace and love for all mankind would allow their families to be attacked before they would raise a hand against another to protect them. There must be many reading here who could understand what seems to be poor choices in the name of love.
Since you have a scientific mind one way to think about it is that perhaps for some parents the instinct to bond with the child is so strong (through a chemical reaction) that it lasts a lifetime? Just speculating here. We do know that that bonding exists otherwise I suspect that most babies would have been tossed out of the cave shortly after birth.
Can't you hear it? "That thing! It smells, makes noise, eats but doesn't do any of the work and keeps me up half the night." LOL. It must have been only someone's love that saw any worth at all in the infants.
Let me offer a flip side suggestion to your "Parents who 'doggedly' love." What if the parents who reject a child are actually the ones who can't tolerate reality? The only way they can continue to exist as sane individuals is to pretend they had nothing to do with the violent one?
I imagine the spectrum runs to crazy on both sides of the fence. But assuredly, like all human behavior, it has an explanation that involves the most comfortable existence and not everyone who makes a choice different than the majority is crazy.
So many different ways to look at this.
My stance is so overly simple and has a lot to do with my feelings for the victim.
Sticking with my severe child murder scenarios, knowing my kid was the one who ripped the infant apart as in the Brianna case, my agony over what the victim endured would supplant any love and replace it with the same loathing and disgust I'd feel had I no link to the perp. Knowing I produced the perp would only make me wish more to separate myself from him/her as the thought of any connection to one who would do that, is revolting.
It's my wiring, I can tell it's a very base reaction, not at all intellectualized.
I'm also the sort of Mother who was very hep on personal responsibility, not making exuses and above all NOT BLAMING OTHERS. The last was a biggie and all of mine knew it. I'm not very emotional to begin with so that likely factors in; mine all knew there'd be no help if they screwed up or made poor choices that harmed others (none did).
My stance is so overly simple and has a lot to do with my feelings for the victim.
Sticking with my severe child murder scenarios, knowing my kid was the one who ripped the infant apart as in the Brianna case, my agony over what the victim endured would supplant any love and replace it with the same loathing and disgust I'd feel had I no link to the perp. Knowing I produced the perp would only make me wish more to separate myself from him/her as the thought of any connection to one who would do that, is revolting.
It's my wiring, I can tell it's a very base reaction, not at all intellectualized.
I'm also the sort of Mother who was very hep on personal responsibility, not making exuses and above all NOT BLAMING OTHERS. The last was a biggie and all of mine knew it.
That's why I think it's very important to differentiate between ourselves and our children. We can do all the right things and they still turn out to be their own people.
To me it's logical to recognize and accept who they are, even if I don't like it. In the end I never had the power to make them who I wanted them to be.
You and I are probably both good parents. (I once took my son to the police station and told him to tell them what he just told me. Incidentally the police weren't interested but I hope it made an impression.) We just go about things differently.
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