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^^^^ I give you exhibit A, of why we have so many kids and adults today who do not think they have to play by any rules, and why we have so many problems in the world today.
"Spare the rod, spoil the child". If you don't have him under control at 3, you are going to be wondering at 16 where things went wrong.
You do realize that the Biblical rod was that of guidance, not chastisement, don't you? Shepherds used rods to guide their sheep from danger, not to beat them into submission. Which would never have worked anyway, as you'd know if you'd ever met any sheep. Doesn't work long-term with kids, either (human kind, not goats).
Again, an occasional swat on the bottom to get attention when a child is about to do something dangerous or harmful to others is okay by me. Just don't rely on corporal punishment for discipline or you'll compound the problems. There are much more effective ways, especially with small children. Set the scene - remove triggers and substitute incentives - get inside his or her little head and heart and figure out what makes 'em tick, and you'll have most of the problem solved far more painlessly and without stressing everyone out.
^^^^ I give you exhibit A, of why we have so many kids and adults today who do not think they have to play by any rules, and why we have so many problems in the world today.
"Spare the rod, spoil the child". If you don't have him under control at 3, you are going to be wondering at 16 where things went wrong.
First of all that saying is not from the Bible.
Quote:
The line is from a very secular poem. There are some verses in the bible that are *close* but they can be interpreted differently as well.
Here's the quote in context:
He who spares the rod, hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Ironically, the phrase, as frequently quoted, probably comes from a mock-epic satirical poem written by Samuel Butler between 1663 and 1678-not the Samuel Butler of The Way of All Flesh and Erewhon. Essentially an anti-Puritan tract, Butler's poem, entitled "Hudibras," was patterned after Cervantes's "Don Quixote." The hero, Sir Hudibras, was a hump-backed, pot-bellied, Presbyterian justice with a long, untidy carrot-colored beard. On his half-blind old horse, and with his faithful squire, Ralpho--the English equivalent of Sancho Panza-Sir Hudibras embarked on a crusade to reform England and enforce the laws suppressing sports and other idle amusements.
Butler's burlesque poem portrayed the Puritans as obnoxious nuisances whose hypocrisy and stupidity needed to be exposed. Inadvertently, however, Butter popularized for us, three hundred years later, an aphorism taken literally today by more orthodox descendents of his antipathy.
The tragic scenario and the literary source of this single line comes not from Proverbs but from a setting which finds Sir Hudibras imprisoned in stocks. A widow whom he had been wooing visits him and they discuss at length the possibility of matrimony. She offers to free him if he would consent to a whipping such as lovers endure for their ladies, and which serves virtue and corrects the mistakes of nature. She explains:
And I'll admit you to the place
You claim as due in my good grace.
If matrimony and hangings go
By dest'ny, why not whipping too?
What med'cine else can cure the fits
Of lovers when they lose their wits?
Love is a boy by poets styl'd
Then spare the rod, and spoil the child.
Though the meaning is obscure, it is clear that disciplining children was not being debated but possible escapades between Sir Hudibras and his heroine. Such a questionable and un-biblical context hardly legitimates the use of the phrase as a religious resource, proof-text, or moral guideline for rearing and disciplining children today.
The interpretation of this passage is totally off in terms of spanking children.
The closest Biblical passage to the above is:
Proverbs 23:13,14 is a commonly cited scripture for the support of corporal punishment. From a historical perspective, King Solomon, author of the book of Proverbs, was recorded as a brutal king who was thirsty for violence and who later opposed the law of God. His sons, who no doubt received corporal punishment, were rebellious, disrespectful and very aggressive. Given King Solomon's lack of family success, is he a good spiritual role model for parenting? In contrast, Jesus Christ was by far the Bible's most peaceful figure.
There is no scripture in the New Testament in which Jesus advocates for, admonishes or recommends the use of corporal punishment on children. In stark contrast, he stated that people should treat others the way they wish to be treated. That is hardly a support for violence. Citing isolated Biblical scriptures is not an acceptable argument for using corporal punishment on children. Using the same technique of taking ancient, isolated scriptures out of context, one could also justify polygamy, racism, slavery, banishing menstruating women from public and stoning to death of those who have sexual relations outside of marriage. Additionally, there is no evidence that the "rod" of the Bible was anything other than a symbolic metaphor for a shepherd's staff, which was used to lead or guide, not hit, sheep. To take a few isolated scriptures from the Old testament out of context to excuse assaulting children is a gross contradiction of Jesus' message of love, tenderness and peace.
Second of all, we tend to overestimate the effectiveness of spanking. One reason why almost everyone overestimates the effectiveness of spanking is that we have “selective inattention.” We simply do not
remember when spanking fails, as it does most of the time, because it contradicts what we want to believe. Partly this is because our culture believes spanking is “normal” and partly because many of us were spanked as children. It is difficult for us as adults to relate our adult problems to childhood spanking or to condemn our parents.
You do realize that the Biblical rod was that of guidance, not chastisement, don't you? Shepherds used rods to guide their sheep from danger, not to beat them into submission. Which would never have worked anyway, as you'd know if you'd ever met any sheep.
Not sure how many middle eastern shepherds you know; but I can assure you the ones that carry a staff absolutely DO smack the animals to get in line. Submission doesn’t require a full on beating... it can be one smack on the bottom meant to startle or stop the animal in its tracks. It is also used to poke and prod but more than often; it is used to smack the wayward animal. In fact by the time sheep get to adult age, a good herder has had them trained so the sound of the staff/rod rapped against a tree or rock etc is enough to get them moving.
So, in the context of that particular bible verse; a rod literally refers to the stick/staff used to smack/prod your animals to get/keep them in line. No different than how whips were used when ‘guiding’ horses.
PS: I have huge reservations about this practice and as a child I more than once wanted to grab the stick and use it on the herder. But that would very likely have ended up with me on the wrong end of said stick and they wouldn’t have bothered to ask my parents for permission. Beatings have no place in child(or animal) rearing. Whether spanking does depends on the prevailing culture.
^^^^ I give you exhibit A, of why we have so many kids and adults today who do not think they have to play by any rules, and why we have so many problems in the world today.
"Spare the rod, spoil the child". If you don't have him under control at 3, you are going to be wondering at 16 where things went wrong.
In Sweden, corporal punishment was banned and their rates of juvenile delinquency and crime actually went down.
Also, I don't have time to find a link, but if you look at the percentages of juvenile offenders in this countries, virtually all have disciplined with corporal punishment.
The sheer shock of it works well on young kids; when older, an embarrassment factor comes into play as well. The last time I had to use physical chastisement on a kid was when my 3rd one was aged 13; she mouthed off to me in front of her friends; she got a good rap across the mouth and never, ever did it again.
I don't think I've ever heard any of them curse, to this day they won't in front of me.
The wee lad in the OP seems to lack both boundaries and structure from his caregivers; he is like a tyrant reigning over the adults who are too scared of hurting his feelings, I guess, to take charge.
It works well to stop the behavior *in that moment*. In the long run, it does not work,as shown by your own example. You're still having to use physical punishment at 13??? I'm sorry, but that is not a good example to support your arguments. If physical punishment is so effective, then why is your kid mouthing off at you and why are you still having to hit her??
Also, by the time the kid is 13, most people don't consider corporal punishment to be acceptable as the child is able to reason.
Also, I don't have time to find a link, but if you look at the percentages of juvenile offenders in this countries, virtually all have disciplined with corporal punishment.
This is an oft quoted study but the truth is juvenile offenders are products of their overall environment. One could just as easily replace “disciplined with corporal punishment” with “dysfunctional family histories” or “substance dependent parents”, or “impoverished backgrounds” or “minority background” or “poor education opportunities” on and on to the point where that statement is at best- disingenuous.
It works well to stop the behavior *in that moment*. In the long run, it does not work,as shown by your own example. You're still having to use physical punishment at 13??? I'm sorry, but that is not a good example to support your arguments. If physical punishment is so effective, then why is your kid mouthing off at you and why are you still having to hit her??
Also, by the time the kid is 13, most people don't consider corporal punishment to be acceptable as the child is able to reason.
You're assuming much that is false.
That was very unusual for that kid in particular who was my most compliant of the 4; she never talked back.
It absolutely worked in the long term; unacceptable behaviors were not repeated. The older they got the more infrequent the need for physical discipline. Also varied by child; two rarely needed correction, one needed it more than the other three combined, the 3rd one almost always only needed verbal correction from infancy; a sharp tone would stop her.
This method was coupled with strictness in general; all were expected to have self control, take responsibility for their actions and never ever disrespect adults.
If physical chastisement is done within a loose, unstructured free for all type of household I doubt it would work in and of itself; mine was just a small part of an overall highly structured dynamic wherein children knew they were children, not adults, and though valued as such, were to obey and heed their caregivers.
All grew into responsible productive adults who credit their upbringing for making them what they are today.
Unless he has some documented developmental disorder, he sounds like a spoiled brat. Someone has been allowing him to misbehave for about the last two years, so it’s going to be tough getting him civilized.
Have you discussed this with the child’s mother? My suggestion would be that she take her child and live elsewhere if she won’t get him under control.
Exactly. There's a glaring omission in the OP's narrative--the mother, and how she's been dealing with the child's behavior. It's pointless to advise the grandparent, if the mother isn't also on board with whatever strategy is recommended.
More info needed, OP. You've left 50% of the equation out of the picture.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 10-13-2018 at 01:24 PM..
The Three Year old is not a violent, demanding year. Something is amiss. Several posters have already mentioned the absence of the father. I'm no Yale expert but I have researched the differences in growth and personality of the young child and his behavior is a-typical and is understandable if the father is not in the home. There's no mention here about how long it has been that the child has broken off seeing his father or living with him.
No matter what the politically correct views are today, the absence of a parent can bring tremendous changes to the human personality and sense of safety, stability and self image in the young child. It is DAMAGING and can cause LASTING problems. The idea that "children today are more resiliant" is nonsense.
If mom and dad separated THIS is THE issue.
Judgmental much?
My son's father and I are on very civil terms now, but we split up a couple weeks before my son turned 3. (My son demanding to him "Stop talking to her like that!" was the final straw.)
According to you, I should have a messed up adult child, but instead I somehow got a straight-A student who got two college scholarships, graduated with honors, has won three adult state chess championships and is an expert mountaineer who is on a search and rescue team.
By the way, he gets along wonderfully with both of us, partly because we kept our personal problems to ourselves instead of involving him, and we attended his birthday dinners, musical recitals and concerts, graduations, etc., together, and when he had a serious medical issue 4 years ago, we were both there at the hospital the whole time.
I'm not saying the divorce had NO effect on him; of course it did. But I see FAR too many messed up children and adults who came from intact two-parent homes to feel guilty about extricating myself from the horrible marriage mine turned out to be. My ex and I are better as civil friends than life partners.
this doesnt sound like completely uncommon behavior for a 3 year old. My son was at times like this. People thinks 3 is a worse age than 2.
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