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I don't want to turn this thread into a debate so I was trying to avoid being specific but I see that isn't going to work. It's the Cub Scouts. The organization requires a belief in God and the oath begins "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God". My family are atheists and therefore can't honestly take the oath or be part of the organization. The thing is I think scouting can be a great activity for kids. I am conflicted because I can't in good conscience be part of the organization and I don't want to teach my children it is okay to lie. Or is it okay in this instance to tell my son to fudge the truth? He has no concept of what a god is at this point, it has never come up in conversation.
I recited that pledge when I was a cub scout. It literally meant nothing to me - except - this is something you have to do to be in the scouts.
At the time, I was still attending church as a result of collective bargaining - my parents said we had to go.
Later I grew up and dropped all pretense and or question that I believed in god.
No harm done to the scouts.
No harm done to me.
No harm done to the church.
No harm done to god.
Let your kid go scouting if he really wants and let him enjoy until he decides what he will be.
I think you dismissed the many posts that said people substitute "good" or whatever when the pledge is said. They might ascribe to high levels of honesty and integrity AND not believe in a god. Isn't that consistent with your beliefs? I don't think the scouts are defining "God" in one way. It's just a word.
All members as well as adult leaders must subscribe to the Scout Oath and Laws which are below. I put the religious requirements in bold for emphasis.
Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.
Scout Law
The Scout Law has 12 points. Each is a goal for every Scout. A Scout tries to live up to the Law every day. It is not always easy to do, but a Scout always tries.
A Scout is:
TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.
LOYAL. Show that you care about your family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and country.
HELPFUL. Volunteer to help others without expecting a reward.
FRIENDLY. Be a friend to everyone, even people who are very different from you.
COURTEOUS. Be polite to everyone and always use good manners.
KIND. Treat others as you want to be treated . Never harm or kill any living thing without good reason.
OBEDIENT. Follow the rules of your family, school, and pack. Obey the laws of your community and country.
CHEERFUL. Look for the bright side of life. Cheerfully do tasks that come your way. Try to help others be happy.
THRIFTY. Work to pay your own way. Try not to be wasteful. Use time, food, supplies, and natural resources wisely.
BRAVE. Face difficult situations even when you feel afraid. Do what you think is right despite what others might be doing or saying.
CLEAN. Keep your body and mind fit . Help keep your home and community clean.
REVERENT. Be reverent toward God. Be faithful in your religious duties. Respect the beliefs of others.
REVERENT. Be reverent toward God. Be faithful in your religious duties. Respect the beliefs of others.
rev·er·ence
ˈrev(ə)rəns/Submit
noun
1.
deep respect for someone or something.
Seems to me that lip service is the polar opposite of this. I get the viewpoint that just ignoring these things so you kid can play is appealing to some. But I don't share it. Be truthful. But then ignore the words that come later in the oath....
When people say that little kids don't get this stuff, maybe true maybe not. But they do ultimately get it. And when they do, they might not share that with you since they will have no idea if it is important to you. I actually believe in truthfulness enough that I am very, very careful about dealing with enlightened self interest in terms of going along to get along with society that looks at things differently than I do. If one really thinks honesty is important, than how can you endorse lying to do activities? When is lying ok and not ok?
So your father is okay with lying to an organization that strives to teach honesty, integrity, and being a good citizen? The religious requirement extends to adult leaders in the organization.
I asked him once about the religious part, and he said that part is "just words." The rest of the oath he lives to the fullest. For YEARS, he's marched in parades, put the flags out on the graves for Memorial Day, done food drives, car washes, and service projects for the VFW Post that is the troop's sponsor, as well as the Elks Club that may become their new sponsor, as the Post is close to folding as an organization. Not to mention the numerous services projects for the BSA itself. He's 78 and still involved.
See, if you were a true atheist (and he's been one far longer than you'll been alive) you'd realize that "honesty, integrity, and being a good citizen" doesn't require a religious background or belief system to live out those precepts. He's a living example of that and, if the truth came down to it, there are a huge number of Scouts and leaders who can attest to the fact that "Mr. A" belongs in the BSA as much as any churchgoer does.
All members as well as adult leaders must subscribe to the Scout Oath and Laws which are below. I put the religious requirements in bold for emphasis.
Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.
Scout Law
The Scout Law has 12 points. Each is a goal for every Scout. A Scout tries to live up to the Law every day. It is not always easy to do, but a Scout always tries.
A Scout is:
TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.
LOYAL. Show that you care about your family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and country.
HELPFUL. Volunteer to help others without expecting a reward.
FRIENDLY. Be a friend to everyone, even people who are very different from you.
COURTEOUS. Be polite to everyone and always use good manners.
KIND. Treat others as you want to be treated . Never harm or kill any living thing without good reason.
OBEDIENT. Follow the rules of your family, school, and pack. Obey the laws of your community and country.
CHEERFUL. Look for the bright side of life. Cheerfully do tasks that come your way. Try to help others be happy.
THRIFTY. Work to pay your own way. Try not to be wasteful. Use time, food, supplies, and natural resources wisely.
BRAVE. Face difficult situations even when you feel afraid. Do what you think is right despite what others might be doing or saying.
CLEAN. Keep your body and mind fit . Help keep your home and community clean.
REVERENT. Be reverent toward God. Be faithful in your religious duties. Respect the beliefs of others.
To be honest (as a scout would), it seems that you are just "itchin for a fight" or a reason to talk down the scouts or "god". If you are an Atheist, I am sure that there are many things you come across in daily life that promote god, and you just ignore them, or let them slide off your back. What makes this so different?
I asked him once about the religious part, and he said that part is "just words."
This makes no sense. How does one discern when an oath is an oath and when is an oath "just words"?
Quote:
See, if you were a true atheist (and he's been one far longer than you'll been alive) you'd realize that "honesty, integrity, and being a good citizen" doesn't require a religious background
What does that even mean? If you truly do not believe in god then you would come to the same conclusions as your father did?
Honesty requires... well ... being honest. Vs reciting BS as "just words". It seems like a perfectly reasonable PoV.
To be honest (as a scout would), it seems that you are just "itchin for a fight" or a reason to talk down the scouts or "god". If you are an Atheist, I am sure that there are many things you come across in daily life that promote god, and you just ignore them, or let them slide off your back. What makes this so different?
I am not itching for a fight. I was looking for perspective and have decided that my son unfortunately cannot be part of this organization. Yes I do come across things in my daily life that promote god. I usually just roll my eyes and move on since they are usually in a private setting. This was about my son wanting to join a group and me coming to realize that he cannot.
It is also my hope that some people might see this and realize that some things they take no notice of, or may think of as minor, can be incredibly alienating to other people.
See, if you were a true atheist (and he's been one far longer than you'll been alive) you'd realize that "honesty, integrity, and being a good citizen" doesn't require a religious background or belief system to live out those precepts. He's a living example of that and, if the truth came down to it, there are a huge number of Scouts and leaders who can attest to the fact that "Mr. A" belongs in the BSA as much as any churchgoer does.
I agree with what you are saying. I also didn't meant to indicate your dad is a bad person, but the truth is he is lying to the organization. He may be comfortable with that, I am not.
Please, for the sake of your son, consider at least asking the scout leader if your son can skip saying the one sentence in the oath that is so offensive to you.
I agree with what you are saying. I also didn't meant to indicate your dad is a bad person, but the truth is he is lying to the organization. He may be comfortable with that, I am not.
Then Don't Join
Why the hell is this thread 24 damn Pages now
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