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Old 10-25-2018, 08:50 AM
 
1,993 posts, read 1,213,664 times
Reputation: 9513

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There's a big difference in recognizing the fact that your child meets the generally held definition of "loser" and actually calling them one. I think the OP was asking about that, quite frankly, but a lot of people just jumped on the "how could you say mean things about your child?" train.

People do call other people losers. No, it's not nice, but we all know the definition of the word. Labels, when speaking generally about people--even our children--make the conversation understandable.

I absolutely don't consider my son a loser. To a portion of the outside world, a 20-year-old who has never held a job and stays at home most of the time sure looks like one. It's a matter of perception.
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Old 10-25-2018, 06:38 PM
 
13,186 posts, read 12,829,166 times
Reputation: 38062
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantompilot View Post
Not sure if you caught it but the OP was a Special Ed teacher...certainly she is fully capable of detecting a learning disability in her own child.
My mother was a guidance counselor who was also trained to recognize learning disabilities. I made it to 30 before getting a diagnosis of severe ADD. My life was not easy by any stretch of the imagination, and my mother (who likely has an undiagnosed personality disorder) claims she never had any clue until I was an adult when she tried to tell me (which I do not for the life of me remember - but she rewrites a lot).

I can't respond to this post objectively, because I can't help but look askance at the OP. My mother will tearfully tell people she "did her best" with me, but honestly, she was mostly just emotionally abusive. I'm actually pretty successful - lots of beloved friends, a six-figure job in a field where I'm very respected (but everyone will tell you I'm a total oddball), my own house, etc. But I'll never have a functional relationship or kids, because that kind of emotional vulnerability and the responsibilities those things entail is just a bridge too far.

MrRational got it right though - the behaviors exhibited by the OP's daughter don't just show up out of the blue after a person turns 18. And the OP says she actually was rebellious and a poor student in high school. So at that point, she needed counseling and to be guided onto a track that did not involve continuing her academic career.

Because we don't really know what happened to her, do we? Not a ton of people (and certainly not my mother) know that I was sexually assaulted (not raped, but still pretty bad) in high school. Still did great academically, but pretty much shrank into myself and let every other aspect of my life fall to pieces. My mother (the one with the master's in counseling) saw that I was struggling and basically told me to straighten up or she'd 1) make me see a psychiatrist (interesting how she saw this as a threat); 2) find a way to put me in foster care; 3) send me away to a school for kids with emotional problems. Fortunately, school was easy for me, and I did ok. Academics assured me a future even as I was crushed by everything else happening in my life. I knew I had the tools to survive even with crushing anxiety and depression and I had at least one reasonably supportive parent in my father, so I kept trying, kept plugging. A lot of people give up, and I can't blame them, because I was just a hair's breadth from joining them for a lot of my life.

So yeah, I'm not really sure what's going on here, but I'm suspicious of the OP's efforts, based on my own personal experience. She may have genuinely done her very best, but as a good outcome that almost wasn't, I am not an objective third party.
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Old 10-31-2018, 09:15 PM
 
Location: NY to NJ
645 posts, read 794,515 times
Reputation: 1027
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ312 View Post
I'm not sure if the loser label should be used. Not going to college isn't bad at all. You said she got mainly C's and D's in high school, so she should not have even tried community college. The United States is producing too many college graduates. Trade school could have been an option for a good career, but she didn't even need a career. For a female, I don't thinking working is a big deal.

Her big problem is that she never was able to harness her looks into getting something longer term, which is a function of attitude and lacking homemaking skills. If she had solid homemaking skills, she could have landed a man longer term and raised the children. I wonder what her personality is like if she's had issues retaining boyfriends. At 36, her looks are already declining but she could probably still be in enough demand on the open market for dating. An older guy who doesn't want kids or any more kids would be interested in a childless 36 year and could spoil her if she had an amazing personality and supremely good homemaking skills where her presence would make his life easier. A busy middle manager or executive who can't handle cooking, grocery shopping, and other day-to-day household maintenance logistics could really use a woman like her to aid his life.
This almost made me spit out my drink. Her looks are "declining" at 36 lol? For all you know, she probably is hotter then some 25 year olds you see. I'm around that age and there's nothing "declining" on me Did you get this advice from one of those manuals they gave women on "How to be a good wife", back in the 50's
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:23 AM
 
3,408 posts, read 1,884,455 times
Reputation: 3848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me 82 View Post
This almost made me spit out my drink. Her looks are "declining" at 36 lol? For all you know, she probably is hotter then some 25 year olds you see. I'm around that age and there's nothing "declining" on me Did you get this advice from one of those manuals they gave women on "How to be a good wife", back in the 50's
The feminine ideal valued by wide swaths of males is youth and beauty. Youth is valued because it biologically indicates higher levels of fertility/reproductive health. Even if the goal of an interaction isn't reproduction, the capacity for it is still appealing. This is what is biologically imprinted into us, regardless of cultural programming. For the majority of women, youth and beauty peak from ages 15-25. 26-30 is still near peak. By 36, every woman's looks have declined from their personal peak. Declines may be subtle, but they are still there.

OP's 36 year old daughter may be plenty attractive still with the decline. A 36 year old who has managed to take care of herself may be more attractive than some 25 year olds who have not managed to care for themselves well. However, she's past peak. Now, with the mating marketplace as skewed as it is, there will still plenty of demand out there for a childless 36 year old who has accomplished nothing with her life as long as her looks are still decent. Her attitude and behaviors will play a role in her level of success in dating/mating going forward. By any sense, I do not think OP's daughter is a lost cause, but she has some issues to work on. She did waste her youth, which is tragic. She should have never tried college and should have been guided towards either trade school or looked to be a homemaker.

Men are less judged on outward appearance for how attractive that they are perceived. Even still, in terms of outward appearance, men's appearances do decline from 25 to 36. Older men can still be very attractive to younger women based upon their achievements in life. If a 36 year old man wants to date a 22 year old woman, he has to have a lot going for him and be in the absolute upper echelon of men in his age bracket. The bigger the age gap, the more the man needs to have going for him. Most men do not have the value to attract women more than 5 years younger.
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Old 11-01-2018, 01:52 PM
 
Location: The mountain of Airy
5,193 posts, read 5,106,324 times
Reputation: 3457
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ312 View Post
The feminine ideal valued by wide swaths of males is youth and beauty. Youth is valued because it biologically indicates higher levels of fertility/reproductive health. Even if the goal of an interaction isn't reproduction, the capacity for it is still appealing. This is what is biologically imprinted into us, regardless of cultural programming. For the majority of women, youth and beauty peak from ages 15-25. 26-30 is still near peak. By 36, every woman's looks have declined from their personal peak. Declines may be subtle, but they are still there.

OP's 36 year old daughter may be plenty attractive still with the decline. A 36 year old who has managed to take care of herself may be more attractive than some 25 year olds who have not managed to care for themselves well. However, she's past peak. Now, with the mating marketplace as skewed as it is, there will still plenty of demand out there for a childless 36 year old who has accomplished nothing with her life as long as her looks are still decent. Her attitude and behaviors will play a role in her level of success in dating/mating going forward. By any sense, I do not think OP's daughter is a lost cause, but she has some issues to work on. She did waste her youth, which is tragic. She should have never tried college and should have been guided towards either trade school or looked to be a homemaker.

Men are less judged on outward appearance for how attractive that they are perceived. Even still, in terms of outward appearance, men's appearances do decline from 25 to 36. Older men can still be very attractive to younger women based upon their achievements in life. If a 36 year old man wants to date a 22 year old woman, he has to have a lot going for him and be in the absolute upper echelon of men in his age bracket. The bigger the age gap, the more the man needs to have going for him. Most men do not have the value to attract women more than 5 years younger.
I have to say that while your posts, on the surface, may sound like outdated perspectives, there's a lot of real-world truth to what you're saying. I think you will continue to get outraged replies, despite your careful and honest wording, but a lot of it has to do with a misconception around how the world works outside of ideals. The idea of "homemaker" may be insulting to some who believe that a woman should aspire to be more, but I believe any homemaker (man or woman) is doing the most important and honest work that exists.

I believe you are correct with your comments on "decline", even though there may be some scenarios where it's not true. Some people may find a more attractive appearance later in life especially in men. Baby face syndrome is usually not attractive, but as a man ages, some of the grit in his appearance may reflect some semblance of wisdom or experience. In most cases, it may be because someone didn't mature and manage their appearance with as much diligence earlier in life. All of that to say that, all things being equal, everyone has the opportunity to be their most attractive self earlier on.
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Old 11-02-2018, 10:38 PM
 
346 posts, read 170,131 times
Reputation: 384
Observed this development awhile back. Few harsh words fixed it. No liberal nonsense, good old fashioned verbals and reality of life talks did the trick.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:19 PM
 
3,408 posts, read 1,884,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
I have to say that while your posts, on the surface, may sound like outdated perspectives, there's a lot of real-world truth to what you're saying. I think you will continue to get outraged replies, despite your careful and honest wording, but a lot of it has to do with a misconception around how the world works outside of ideals. The idea of "homemaker" may be insulting to some who believe that a woman should aspire to be more, but I believe any homemaker (man or woman) is doing the most important and honest work that exists.

I believe you are correct with your comments on "decline", even though there may be some scenarios where it's not true. Some people may find a more attractive appearance later in life especially in men. Baby face syndrome is usually not attractive, but as a man ages, some of the grit in his appearance may reflect some semblance of wisdom or experience. In most cases, it may be because someone didn't mature and manage their appearance with as much diligence earlier in life. All of that to say that, all things being equal, everyone has the opportunity to be their most attractive self earlier on.
You've interpreted my posts as they were meant to be interpreted. I try my best to live in a world of practicality and not ideals.

I think being a homemaker is great. I think children get the best parenting outcomes when one parent is a stay at home parents and has the ability to spend meaningful time with their child during the course of the child's formative years. The working partner in the relationship benefits from having a homemaker partner. There's something to be said for a working partner about coming home to a homemaker partner who is not harried from a day of doing meaningless, soul sucking work. Raising a child and overseeing the operations of a household is some of the most gratifying work that can be done. The working partner can also be more focused at work when they are not dealing with non-work issues.

One of my employment relationships did not work out partially due to the fact that I was an unmarried male without a stay-at-home wife. At this company, I was being criticizing for not working more hours by executive management, all of whom had stay at home wives. I did not have the luxury of a stay at home wife. At that time, I was my household's sole income earner and I had to oversee all household operations. It was a household of one, but running a household of one does require time and attention. All of these managers had little to none household management responsibilities and therefore could spend more time focused on their jobs. During that time, I would have definitely appreciated having a stay at home wife.

There are men out there that need to have a woman helping them running a household, and OP's daughter with the right attitude and behaviors could have found one of those men. Having children with him would have been optional, but a fairly likely scenario.
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Old 11-03-2018, 05:09 PM
 
648 posts, read 224,532 times
Reputation: 2165
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliDreaming01 View Post
Well in the same spirit of honesty you're showing toward your daughter, I must say yes, I do think you're a bad mother for saying this. Parents may not have all the answers and may not do all the right things, but any good parent is going to be in their child's corner in some shape or fashion no matter how badly their kid turns out. You seem to be throwing your daughter completely under the bus.

To be even more honest, I am getting very strong narcissistic vibes from your post. I see very little concern for your daughter, her future, her happiness and well-being, what problems might have led her to where she is today, etc. etc. etc. Your whole post is about *you* and how her "failures" make *you* feel. You go on about all that you've done for her, and even threw in a little barb about getting her counseling, as if *she* has the problem and you are Ms. Perfect. You say it as though you were trying to do something good for her, but in context, I think to her it sent a message that you thought there is something wrong with her and you don't love her unconditionally.

Then you end with how great you think your son is. The fact you felt the need to mention this shows me that you only care about your image and not your daughter. You seem to feel a need to have the world believe that you are a "great mother", and your son is Exhibit A. You seem to be oblivious to the fact that people don't like to be treated as scapegoats, and the problems that favoritism can cause among siblings.

If you really want honest advice and not just ego strokes, I would say go to family counseling by yourself and be open to the possibility that you might have played a role in how your daughter turned out. If you really want to help her, you need to change first and be able to give her the support a child needs to get from from their mother. If my parents had the same kind of attitude toward me as you are displaying toward your daughter, I would probably feel the same way as she does.
Agree 100%. It is possible the daughter does not and/or can not jump through the parental expectation hoop. For some, it causes them to shut down.

She is an adult. She is free to live her life in the manner she chooses.

Now, if she was living at home and you were supporting her....that would be different response.
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Old 11-07-2018, 09:49 PM
 
Location: USA
2,481 posts, read 1,870,469 times
Reputation: 3942
I would think comparing your daughter to your son would do more harm than good. Everyone can be perceived as a loser in their own way. It's possible for someone to have a "successful" life having launched out of the nest supporting themselves but toxic in their relationships with other people
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Old 12-22-2018, 09:29 PM
 
1,861 posts, read 1,343,468 times
Reputation: 2680
Quote:
Originally Posted by nurider2002 View Post
Sheís a loser. Donít over think it, donít feel responsible.
Maybe. Or she could be confused, depressed, mentally ill, or many other things. Seems a bit harsh and judgmental to label someone a loser considering you donít actually know the person or know anything about what they may or may not be dealing with personally.
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