My 5-year-old is driving me nuts! (child care, punish, out of control, teaching)

[motown mary]

My 5-year-old daughter is a huge handful & I am at my wit's end. She is constantly talking back ("No, YOU go in time out"), or ignoring us when we address her, hitting & taking things from her two younger brothers, whining & begging in stores, talking loudly in church, etc. She is bright, but incredibly mouthy, aggressive & increasingly difficult to live with! I know this all has something to do with the past six months - my husband was laid off, then was home for three months, then got a job in another state & moved away while we sold the house for three months. We are now all together again in the new city in an apartment. I know she misses her school, friends & grandparents and I know this adjustment must be causing it.
What can we do to cut out this terrible behavior? I am afraid to send her to kindergarten with the way she is acting! Anyone have any success with discipline at this age?

We usually do:
time out in hallway
time out in bedroom/nap
take away a privilege
take away a favorite toy/movie
excused from table with no dessert, etc.
and most recently spanked her, but we do not typically spank our kids. We're desperate!

[regarese]

Is she in pre-school now? Can her teachers give you any advice? My friend's 4 year old is like that without the stresses you're experiencing, but she just does not want to be consistant enough with the tools her daughter's teachers have given her-or with any other discipline attempt for that matter.

[mrstewart]

I have read some great books on child rearing that helped me quite a bit. The John Rosemond books are wonderful. There is also a book called "Good Families Don't Just Happen".

Good luck!

[Shopaholic]

Maybe she is acting out for attention? It sounds like you have had a lot on your plate, plus she probably got used to having your DH around most of time. I would try to give her a little extra attention (not when she acts out) and see if that helps the problem. You should also check out the website ParentsConnect because they always have tons of great parenting tips and you can search by age group.

[brokencrayola]

If you do not already watch Supernanny I would suggest it. They often deal with children like your daughter on that show.

[max's mama]

Originally Posted by motown mary

My 5-year-old daughter is a huge handful & I am at my wit's end. She is constantly talking back ("No, YOU go in time out"), or ignoring us when we address her, hitting & taking things from her two younger brothers, whining & begging in stores, talking loudly in church, etc. She is bright, but incredibly mouthy, aggressive & increasingly difficult to live with! I know this all has something to do with the past six months - my husband was laid off, then was home for three months, then got a job in another state & moved away while we sold the house for three months. We are now all together again in the new city in an apartment. I know she misses her school, friends & grandparents and I know this adjustment must be causing it.
What can we do to cut out this terrible behavior? I am afraid to send her to kindergarten with the way she is acting! Anyone have any success with discipline at this age?

We usually do:
time out in hallway
time out in bedroom/nap
take away a privilege
take away a favorite toy/movie
excused from table with no dessert, etc.
and most recently spanked her, but we do not typically spank our kids. We're desperate!

First of all: hugs. You and your family already had to go thru so many adjustments in such short period of time and on top of that you have to raise a child who doesn't seem to cooperate.

From your post, it seems as your daughter is having hard time adjusting and some children are just not flexible (like my DS) and require extra-attention and extra TLC.
My advice might be unpopular, but I think you are being way too punitive for the situation. I suggest you take a deep breath and look at the situation from your daughter's eyes. It seems like "time-outs" will shortly stop working (predictably) since soon she will easily be able to say: nope, not staying in this room and you can't make me. She is already saying it.
Tell her that you love her no matter what.

Be consistent with your messages. Certain behavior is not acceptable - don't allow it. If she misbehaves in church, take her away. If she misbehaves in the store - leave her home (if you can). Take her away from situations every time she misbehaves. When she hits - take her hand and say: "we do not hit, we only use gentle touch" and be consistent.

By the way, don't worry about putting her in kindergarden. Children are notorious in behaving better with any other adult then their parent. They feel the most comfortable with parents and they let loose.

Few books that I love:

Kids are Worth It! by Barbara Coloroso
Connection Parenting by Pam Leo
Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton
How to Talk to Your Kids so They Listen and How to Listen so Kids Talk
Explosive Child by Dr. Greene

ETA: Oh there is something else I wanted to say: you must teach her to verbalize her feelings. It is super-important. Some children cannot express their feelings verbally and they need to be taught. Hell, some adults don't know how to do it and turn to either violence or foul language.
You need to teach her to use her words instead off her fists when she is angry. Use descriptive words: you are angry, you are mad, you are frustrated, you are sad, you are furious, you are upset, etc... Sometimes children need to be taught to speak their feelings.
Unfortunately by running to punish her every time she does something wrong, will strip her from abilities and learning lessons to verbalize and communicate.

[Charles Wallace]

I'm going to respond to these pretty much situation by situation and then give an overview.

Originally Posted by motown mary

My 5-year-old daughter is a huge handful & I am at my wit's end. She is constantly talking back ("No, YOU go in time out"),

"In our family, we do not speak to adults rudely." [And then take her to her room, but I'm not going to suggest time out -- more later].

or ignoring us when we address her,

[Grasp chin and make eye contact] "Will you please repeat what I just said?"

hitting

"In this family, hitting is wrong. We do not hit each other. In the real world, if adults hit each other, someone might hit them back or they might go to jail or might have to pay a fine. It is wrong to hurt other people." [Then take her back to her room -- more later].

& taking things from her two younger brothers,

"In this family, we do not take things from others. You would not like it if your brothers took something from you. You will give back [the item] right now." [Then take her to do this].

whining & begging in stores,

"Whining is not acceptable. If you whine or beg, even a little, even one more time, we will leave. I do not care if the cart is full and we leave without our food. We will leave then and there. I will have Dad watch you and go back to the store myself later." And then FOLLOW UP. Yeah, I abandoned at least two full carts of food in the local supermarket and walked out of at least one restaurant after quickly putting down however much money I owed because of whining. It stopped, though.

talking loudly in church, etc.

Before church: "In church, people are there to listen to God and to worship. You need to be silent when it's appropriate to be silent. If there is any talking, we will leave." And then FOLLOW UP.

She is bright, but incredibly mouthy, aggressive & increasingly difficult to live with! I know this all has something to do with the past six months - my husband was laid off, then was home for three months, then got a job in another state & moved away while we sold the house for three months. We are now all together again in the new city in an apartment. I know she misses her school, friends & grandparents and I know this adjustment must be causing it.

You're absolutely right. And think of how little control she must feel she has over her entire life. That said, it's an explanation for poor behavior, not an excuse for it.

When our child would act badly, 99% of the time, it was because of deeper, underlying issues like the ones you mentioned. When she had a meltdown -- which was almost inevitable after removing her from church, the supermarket, a restaurant, et cetera, I'd take her into the room and dim the lights and hold her on my lap gently and let her rage. If she hit or kicked, I'd gently (but firmly) hold her hand/arm or leg and explain that we do not hit or kick in this family. Keep it calm, keep it loving. She's out of control, but she needs you to be in control, emotionally and otherwise. I'd tell her she was in need of being held (gently) because she was currently out of control, but that I loved her and it would be all right. If she says hateful things, do not respond to them hatefully.

Time out doesn't work because at least to some kids, it feels either like "no big deal" or abandonment. She already feels disconnected, uprooted, and at a loss.

When she's had a chance to let the anger out -- an emotion which feels terribly frightening to a child, for obvious reasons -- I'd try to find the root of the problem and say, "Are you acting this way because [we just moved/Dad has been out of work/you miss your friends]?" Almost all of the time, when I would ask these questions of my daughter, she would dissolve in tears and we'd talk about what the problem was and how we could work through it in a better way than screaming, whining, crying, or generally behaving badly.

I would strongly advise against spanking. Think about it -- if you were acting temperamental because of the incredible stresses you've experienced, it would not help if your husband or mother were to strike you and tell you to grow up.

I hope this helps in any way -- you're a good mom, and I'm sure you've intuited the real cause of your little girl's behavior.

[max's mama]

When our child would act badly, 99% of the time, it was because of deeper, underlying issues like the ones you mentioned. When she had a meltdown, I'd take her into the room and dim the lights and hold her on my lap gently. Time out doesn't work because at least to some kids, it feels either like "no big deal" or abandonment. I'd hold our child gently and let her rage. I wouldn't let her go and I wouldn't let her hit or kick. I'd tell her she was in need of being held (gently) because she was currently out of control, but that I loved her and it would be all right.

When she had a chance to let the anger out -- an emotion which feels terribly frightening to a child, for obvious reasons -- I'd try to find the root of the problem and say, "Are you acting this way because [we just moved/Dad has been out of work/you miss your friends]?" Almost all of the time, she would dissolve in tears and we'd talk about what the problem was and how we could work through it in a better way than screaming, whining, crying, or generally behaving badly.

I would strongly advise against spanking. Think about it -- if you were acting temperamental because of the incredible stresses you've experienced, it would not help if your husband or mother were to strike you and tell you to grow up.

I hope this helps in any way -- you're a good mom, and I'm sure you've intuited the real cause of your little girl's behavior

I love your post and I happen to agree 100%.

I think finding the the cause of actions and trying to work thru them is so valuable. Much more valuable then finding the most effective way "to punish".

[mari4him]

9 times out of 10 children are acting out due to seeking attention, be it positive or negative, they don't really care at that moment, they just want the attention. I'm not a proponent of allowing wrong behavior to continue, therefore I do believe in time-outs, being sent to the room and even closing the door if they are crying and screaming loudly (again often for more attention). To me, to give them that attention is in a way rewarding that behavior and can run the risk of them continuing the behavior in order to achieve the attention.

When a child does that, or I'll say, when my child did that, the first thing I tried to evaluate was if there was a cause for the behavior, say whinning for example, is the child maybe ill or something causing him/her to whine. The next thing I would do, if determining there was no justifiable cause for the behavior, is speak to them and tell them that the behavior was inappropriate and had to stop. If I was being asked for somehting with whining or attitude or demanding, they didn't get it, until they asked nicely and appropriately. Yeah, there probably will be some tantrum but eventually they get it.

What I found worked best for my children, and even now for my younger step-children (3 & 4 yrs.old) is to reward good behavior and ignore or correct wrong behavior. In other words, make an effort to really catch the child when they are doing things the right way.

For example...

Asked for something without whining... give it to them but then say.. "thank you for asking nicely, see how nice it is when there is no whinning".

Out at the store, they ask for something and you say not right now and they don't throw a fit... once out of the store as you are getting in the car say something like "you know, I am really proud of you for how you behaved when mommy said you couldn't have ...."

If you make it a point to really point out the good stuff they do, they will like that attention and seek it out more than they will the negative consequences. Too often, the good behavior goes unpraised because it is just expected, but when you are trying to deal with correcting wrong behavior it becomes crucial to point out and reward the good behavior.

One thing that I did and am doing now too is teaching store behavior. A lot of times kids do act out in the stores and as parents we are somethings stuck because we really need to get those groceries or supplies or what not. This adds to our frustration, and our frustration adds to their acting out. So what I do is I try to plan trips to stores when I DON'T need something. I call them teaching trips. We'll go and just walk around and look, maybe purchase something small and trivial even if just a pack of gum at the end, but the point is that while at the store if they act up you say "okay, you are not behaving right now, do we need to go home?" Often they say no, they want to be out. But you make it clear that if the behavior doesn't change you will go home. And if it doesn't, take the child home. Next time you try this you remind them of the previous time you went home and then if they act up you say... "do I need to take you home again, or would you like to go around to more stores".

I found that I only had to make that trip home once or twice and they knew that if I said I would take them home, I would. Even if it meant I'd go out later to do what I had to do when I could leave them with someone else.

Personally, I think what you are doing is great. You are setting boundaries and consequences to help her make wise choices in her behavior. I do believe that perhaps some of what you feel is affecting your child may very well be true. I would suggest talking with her during non-conflict moments about what she is feeling. This may help.

I agree also with what someone else said, I wouldn't be afraid of putting her in kindergarten, kids do tend to behave better sometimes around other adults than they do with their own parents. Also, in the kindergarten setting you have the other factors involved like the class structure, expectations and other children. She will more than likely do just fine. This may all just be a stage she is going through due to the disruption that took place in her life. How you handle it though can make the difference between it passing quicker or lingering around for a while.

Just hang in there. Don't take it personal, try to stay calm about it and try to focus on what she does right more than what she does wrong. Good luck.

[hypocore]

Here's my .02....as a mom of 4, early child care professional and child care provider for 18 years.
I think there are two things you need to do, with your husband in full agreement and support.
First, I think you need to put some fun back in the family to shed some of the stress over all the changes and misbehavior that's occurred. Think of it as a retreat and shed all your own stress and expectations in order to achieve this. For instance, head to a water park or amusement park. If you need to take it in smaller steps, go to a place like Putt Putt or Chuck E Cheese. While there, concentrate only on playing as a family. No cell phones, no work, no talking about life outside the activity you are participating in at the moment. Live in the moment and enjoy it. Give out extra hugs and kisses. Eat dessert first, go barefoot, go up slides instead of down....just do things you wouldn't normally do.

Next, now that you've all had some wonderful family fun and let off some of that stress, take a huge step backwards and let her take responsibility for her own behavior instead of you taking it on. This means that instead of you choosing to send her to time out or taking away things or even resorting to physical punishment, you turn over that power to her due to the choices she makes. What I mean by that is....you set clear boundaries with no room at all for negotiation. If she...'undesired behavior'...then 'logical consequnce'....will happen. So, when she talks back to you simply say, I'm sorry I don't talk to people who are rude to me, and walk away. Do not engage in any further conversation with her at all until she is polite. Do not react in anger, actually do not react at all other than stating your response and walking away. When she yells at you, simply repeat that phrase-I'm sorry I don't talk to people who are rude to me. She won't like one bit being ignored.

If the tables are turned and she is ignoring you, turn the table back on her and say, ok if you don't want to listen to what I have to say....then turn and tell her brother that you love him so much and want to treat him to an ice cream. Oh, I'm sorry, you didn't want to listen to me, so you missed out. Shrug...her problem not yours. She won't know if you really wanted to offer her an ice cream or not, but she likely won't take that chance again. Just be sure that sometimes you really do have a treat for her for just listening to her...a hug, a sticker or an ice cream.

When she takes the next step, after being ignored and not finding success with rude behavior, it changes from being rude as the issue to the new issue. So if she hits/scratches then you say...I'm sorry you chose to do that, now you have to 'logical consequence'. After she gives 'first aid' to the person she has hurt(whether they need it or not), she must take over that person's chore/task since they are now hurt and can't do it(whether they can or not)......picking up toys, taking out trash..whatever is handy. No sweat off your back, she did it, she takes care of it.

If she resorts to damaging/defacing things you say, I'm sorry you chose to damage/deface that, now you have to 'logical consequence'. If she's made a mess, she cleans it up, with you nearby to keep an eye on her after giving her the tools she needs. For instance, she throws her glass of juice, you hand her the cleaning rag and step back. If she does a kids version of cleaning, that's fine, just don't re-do it with her knowing you did so. If you have to deal with a sticky floor for a few hours until she's gone to bed, so be it. If she's broken something she needs to repair it herself. If she's damaged something beyond repair she needs to be financially responsible for replacing it. Don't worry that she has no money, have her sell a favorite toy back to you so she gets the money to pay you for the replacement. Then put that toy away until some point in the future where she can earn it back or buy it back. The biggest issue here is to put the consequences solely on her shoulders based on her actions. She broke it, she fixes it. You don't get angry, instead you feel sadness for her choice. I'm sorry you chose to do that.

If you are going to a store, she gets a refresher on the rules before you leave home. If you act out then you (depending on time of day) - leave or you don't get TV/computer/free time when we get home or you eat dinner by yourself (don't take away food, take away the inclusion).

See the pattern here? You are not the one choosing the consequence, she is by her choices of behavior. If she gets in trouble, it's her fault and she can't blame anyone else. You are no longer engaged in the behavior battle, it's all hers. Therefore you no longer have to stress about it and she begins to learn to make choices that won't land her in a undesirable consequence. As long as you are firm, consistent and removed from it emotionally, then you will see improved behavior.

Now, for situations where the logical consequence isn't quite so tangible or is more difficult to achieve successfully for all involved, take a different route. For instance, in church or at a restaurant, if she's loud or otherwise disruptive, take her out to the car and sit down. Proceed to tell her very dramatically that you ar so sad over not getting to stay for church/dinner because of her behavior. Tell her you are sooooooooo hungry or soooooooooo disappointed you missed the sermon because she chose to be removed from the situation. Act as if it has just drained you of all energy and you can't even drive, and just sit there. When she gets concerned for your well being and she's willing to 'fix' it, tell her you just don't know what she can do to fix it....sermon is over, dinner is cold. Maybe to get your energy back she can do all the dusting for you at home. Then get just enough energy back to drive home, or better yet wait for hubby to get done with sermon/dinner and drive you back home. Upon arrival plop in a chair and sigh heavily while telling her where to get the dusting stuff. As she dusts....you don't feel much better yet...keep going...oh you feel a bit better....keep going....ahhh, much better, but not quite back to normal...keep going. Finally you feel good and she can stop. Next time she starts while in church or out to dinner, take a deep breath, lean back in your chair and blow out a big sigh and say you feel energy draining......:-)

Alot of this is just how I parent. (been one for 26 years now) I have never taken on my kids issues that they have caused. The rest was tweaked by learning a bit about Love and Logic, (energy drain is theirs) which mirrors and expands my parenting philosophy. If you can see things I've posted working for you, then you might check out the Love and Logic books and such. I don't recall who writes it, though I know it's a man and his son, but you can google it and find it easily enough. PBS has run a special about it in the past and that might be available still as well.

Good luck