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Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
7,652 posts, read 2,918,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I was able to read the article.

In summary, this is a mother of a high school student who has severe outbursts at home, but is able to function acceptably well in school and is physically normal looking, even attractive. Socially inept. She appears to have the capacity to go to college and earn a living income, although the mom wonders whether she will choose to do that.

The mom is willing to pay for her college.

The mom's question is, can she dump her now.

The answer is, no, she can't. She can dump her when she's 18 if she chooses to.

This is not likely to be a woman who will need round the clock care, or expensive nursing staff or supervision.

She's a misery to be around at home and has stressed the family to the breaking point with tantrums that can last hours, and is refusing to take prescribed antipsychotics.
I wonder if some marijuana in the evening would help this girl out.
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Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Forest Service Cabin 90% of the yr
49 posts, read 4,983 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LieslMet View Post
The fact that the daughter can control herself when not at home speaks volumes. She CAN control herself; she chooses not to, at home.

This is going to sound horrible to some, I'm sure, but many parents who have children with disabilities enable their bad behavior. They excuse it by naming their disability. They further handicap their own children. The pity from others stops at some point and that parent feels abandoned to their now older, now stronger, now harder-to-manage perma-child.

She's stuck with her. Or, she can abandon her to the world. I think the latter is likely. Writing in to look for more sympathy tells me that her well is almost dry and she's about to look out for #1 again, which has always been herself. It's her choice. Poor her, blah blah blah.

My youngest brother has Down's. He's an *******. He's extremely manipulative, vulgar, and getting older and stronger by the second. It has nothing to do with having Down's; it has everything to do with his bad behavior being excused by his having Down's since he was a baby. WHEN I used to watch him, to give my mother relief, it was a constant struggle at first, until he realized that his antics would get him nowhere. Whenever we're in mixed company though, he blows his nose into dishes he wants for himself. He throws trash on the floor. He has tantrums when he doesn't get his way or not enough people are fawning over some minor nothing. When I go over and wait patiently for him to get his thrashing out, then have him clean up/get back to whatever we were doing like he KNOWS how to do and did at my house before, he swears at me SO QUIETLY, in perfect context. The most horrific, perfect swearing. Then he throws himself into me and starts screaming. When a relative comes to rescue him from me, he smirks and spits at me as he's carried away. He's 10. In first grade. The strongest little f***er you can imagine. And they all enable him. I have made my position clear, at this point. He's going to grow up, be stronger than ever, and do whatever he wants. It will be all of their faults. When he's 20 and my mother is pushing 70, I'm afraid for her, what he'll do. When my sister was pregnant with their first baby, he started beating on her stomach. Her husband is in a hard spot - his wife spoils her little brother too. He keeps that baby FAR AWAY from his small brother in law.

Enabling the bad behavior of anyone - disability/impairment/addiction or not - is NOT LOVE. It's willful blindness. It's selfish.

My family - and this mother who wrote in - actively made these soiled beds to lay in. I don't have much compassion for them. I've seen it first hand.
There is a lot of supports for Downs of any age. It's the only disability the minute they are born they are qualified to enroll in the Regional Center for supports. Even as adults, they can be "adopted" to some extent by living with a HOST family who gets paid similar to foster care. Very few families are willing so it's usually a group home as you likely know.

You won't need to care for him. He will just be drugged to the hilt until he stops that behavior almost completely while living in a group home. Those homes are businesses so they usually won't put up with much.

Likely your brothers teachers and teachers aides at school cannot stand your parents. Wow. That is really horrific what they're doing to him. So sorry but he has a ton of supports, everything this autistic girl has AND MORE. You should go through the courts to become his conservator. AND DON"T put him in supportive living no matter what, EVER. He should be in a group home or a home with a a family who is fostering him (Host home)

These SLS Supportive living are companies owned by private individuals who have a financial stake in getting total control over the individuals and the parents often loose custody. They get mad when the Clients are pulled from their Business so make up stories and report the parents. Discourge visits, don't allow phone calls, etc.. lots of illegal stuff happens in the name of the mighty dollar. THIS IS WHERE YOUR BROTHER IS HEADED. His behavior might be so bad he is enrolled in this program, then kicked out of ARC day programs at 18 so a staff will be with him at home. That is no life. Your parents are screwing his future life up. They are the kind of parents who criticize, make excuses and these SLS agencies/businesses try to get total control over him. Then drug him. Worse than group homes.


Someone needs to be your brothers conservator when he turns 18. Or at some point before your parents die so someone has input and the system doesn't own him. There is also a thing called Limited Conservatorship. You shouldn't need to pay an attorney but fill out forms to see a Judge. No judge doesn't understand a person with a downs brother needs an overseer for life

The best thing is to start now. Find a good group home yourself. Call the regional center to ask where they are located in your area.
Or go online for their addresses. Stop by unexpectedly. Find the ones you like. No openings now? well there may be in 8 yrs

Ask the ARC funded programs, their instructors, which group homes are better than others. Most are bad so get ONE NAME only.

Arrange for his supports NOW. Downs cannot usually live alone so a group home, with your input PRIOR, is best. Otherwise your brother may really hurt someone ending up in an institution. Ensure he is enrolled in an ARC funded program, not the other programs owned by an individual. This allows the ARC employees to refer him to other ARC supports. You can do this without Mom knowing yet be prepared when he turns 18 to take Mom to the home you like. Good luck

Last edited by FrugalFox.; Yesterday at 12:13 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 11:35 AM
 
8,870 posts, read 3,439,819 times
Reputation: 22326
Quote:
Originally Posted by LieslMet View Post
The fact that the daughter can control herself when not at home speaks volumes. She CAN control herself; she chooses not to, at home.
It's highly likely she WANTS to tantrum at school, but she's forcing herself not to. To me, that's a plus and not a minus.

Like if you really really want to scratch an itch, but you wait until you're out of sight to do it. No one would say see there, you didn't really need to scratch, you just chose to.
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM
 
2,516 posts, read 614,457 times
Reputation: 2806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel View Post
This is something that never gets discussed much. Once upon a time, children who were "handicapped" or "disabled" tended to be institutionalized. Nowadays parents are expected to care for them no matter how it damages the family.

May I Cut My Daughter Out of My Life?
By Kwame Anthony Appiah

I am the parent of a high school student with multiple issues... Nearly two decades of this has battered our marriage and careers... Having lost the middle chunk of my life to chaos and misery, am I really condemned to live this way until I die?

For the whole Q&A:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/m...f-my-life.html
Stop SERVING your child. Spouse first, child is a child. Eventually their desire for independence will drive them to earn an income so their parents can't hold their provisions over their head.

The first part is true even for developmentally challenged, it's just a matter of whether the second part will ever happen.
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Old Yesterday, 12:01 PM
 
387 posts, read 185,050 times
Reputation: 1004
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalFox. View Post
There is a lot of supports for Downs of any age. It's the only disability the minute they are born they are qualified to enroll in the Regional Center for supports. Even as adults, they can be "adopted" to some extent by living with a HOST family who gets paid similar to foster care. Very few families are willing so it's usually a group home as you likely know.

You won't need to care for him. He will just be drugged to the hilt until he stops that behavior almost completely while living in a group home. Those homes are businesses so they usually won't put up with much.

Likely your brothers teachers and teachers aides at school cannot stand your parents. Wow. That is really horrific what they're doing to him. So sorry but he has a ton of supports, everything this autistic girl has AND MORE. You should go through the courts to become his conservator. AND DON"T put him in supportive living no matter what, EVER. He should be in a group home or a home with a a family who is fostering him (Host home)

These SLS Supportive living are companies owned by private individuals who have a financial stake in getting total control over the individuals and the parents often loose custody. They get mad when the Clients are pulled from their Business so make up stories and report the parents. Discourge visits, don't allow phone calls, etc.. lots of illegal stuff happens in the name of the mighty dollar. THIS IS WHERE YOUR BROTHER IS HEADED. His behavior might be so bad he is enrolled in this program, then kicked out of ARC day programs at 18 so a staff will be with him at home. That is no life. Your parents are screwing his future life up. They are the kind of parents who criticize, make excuses and these SLS agencies/businesses try to get total control over him. Then drug him. Worse than group homes.


Someone needs to be your brothers conservator when he turns 18. Or at some point before your parents die so someone has input and the system doesn't own him. There is also a thing called Limited Conservatorship. You shouldn't need to pay an attorney but fill out forms to see a Judge. No judge doesn't understand a person with a downs brother needs an overseer for life

The best thing is to start now. Find a good group home yourself. Call the regional center to ask where they are located in your area.
Or go online for their addresses. Stop by unexpectedly. Find the ones you like. No openings now? well there may be in 8 yrs

Ask the ARC funded programs, their instructors, which group homes are better than others. Most are bad so get ONE NAME only.

Arrange for his supports NOW. Downs cannot usually live alone so a group home, with your input PRIOR, is best. Otherwise your brother will hurt someone ending up in an institution. Ensure he is enrolled in an ARC funded program, not the other programs owned by an individual. This allows the ARC employees to refer him to other ARC supports. You can do this without Mom knowing yet be prepared when he turns 18 to take Mom to the home you like. Good luck
As I said, he's manipulative. He has had therapists come to him twice a week since birth. He manipulates them too. At 7, when I saw the deviant in him, I convinced my mother (who homeschooled us all) that he was getting too strong and willful and needed structure... that without some outside discipline and expectations at least, she might be one of those older mothers who was raped by her son and felt she couldn't report it. I sent her links of those cases. She enrolled him in school right away. He has counselors, therapists, and aids. She has to pick him up early almost every day. Every professional there, and for scheduled and regular home visits, is ON him.

He manipulates them all. No one wants to say a regular child is a psychopath, much less one with Down's. He is extremely intelligent. He knows what's going on. I've spoken to them about it. They know. Until he DOES something, their hands are tied.

I honestly hope he does end up institutionalized and drugged. I just hope it's before he really hurts someone else. If I ever show up and see my mother looking broken and suspect he's done anything to her, I'm going to call the police and explain it all. He's not right in the head And it won't work a moment sooner, with 12 other siblings feeding into it and parents with their heads buried deep into his sand, excusing it and not wanting to admit the roles they've had in creating this monster. He plays - and forgive me for this - a textbook "retard" without any self-control in front of them. He'll drool, snot, and thrash like he's having a seizure. Nope. Carried away twitching, then appears to "calm down" in their arms as he smirks, wipes his snot on the back of their shoulders and silently mouths to me, "See that? You f***ing c**t." Like I said, PERFECT context. He's had a lot of siblings talking like stupid teenagers front of him, ranting like he's not able to take it in, and he KNOWS everything that goes on. Extremely intelligent.
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Old Yesterday, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Forest Service Cabin 90% of the yr
49 posts, read 4,983 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by LieslMet View Post
As I said, he's manipulative. He has had therapists come to him twice a week since birth. He manipulates them too. At 7, when I saw the deviant in him, I convinced my mother (who homeschooled us all) that he was getting too strong and willful and needed structure... that without some outside discipline and expectations at least, she might be one of those older mothers who was raped by her son and felt she couldn't report it. I sent her links of those cases. She enrolled him in school right away. He has counselors, therapists, and aids. She has to pick him up early almost every day. Every professional there, and for scheduled and regular home visits, is ON him.

He manipulates them all. No one wants to say a regular child is a psychopath, much less one with Down's. He is extremely intelligent. He knows what's going on. I've spoken to them about it. They know. Until he DOES something, their hands are tied.

I honestly hope he does end up institutionalized and drugged. I just hope it's before he really hurts someone else. If I ever show up and see my mother looking broken and suspect he's done anything to her, I'm going to call the police and explain it all. He's not right in the head And it won't work a moment sooner, with 12 other siblings feeding into it and parents with their heads buried deep into his sand, excusing it and not wanting to admit the roles they've had in creating this monster. He plays - and forgive me for this - a textbook "retard" without any self-control in front of them. He'll drool, snot, and thrash like he's having a seizure. Nope. Carried away twitching, then appears to "calm down" in their arms as he smirks, wipes his snot on the back of their shoulders and silently mouths to me, "See that? You f***ing c**t." Like I said, PERFECT context. He's had a lot of siblings talking like stupid teenagers front of him, ranting like he's not able to take it in, and he KNOWS everything that goes on. Extremely intelligent.
I feel so bad for you. Video tape this so later years. you can show the pattern.
They want and need a pattern.
Be quiet, download it to youtube so it's handy at any time.

The system will generally go faster that way.

The criminal justice system may. need that tape someday, it's at your discretion.

I'd take a video of him 1-2x a year for now on during the episode

Sounds like he needs an institution, for sure, temporarily
I also wonder how many of your siblings are truly afraid of him so will cover for his crimes, when/if, they occur.

He's so high functioning an ARC day program won't suffice. Yet that's gotta be what he's in as the others are businesses and he'd distrust their profits. Only SLS, supportive living services, is a business where this can occur. At least here in Calif

He's smart enough to know he's with other retards so should be in a vocational rehab program during the day when he turns 18, with non retards. he's more in line with schizo's who are various levels. Many are very smart, normal college educated, formerly happily married who had breakdowns or developed schizophrenia.

He may get IHSS after enough crimes committed but it will be for protective services and not sure how they work this with other programs.Your mom is probably getting this right now for him, I believe you can start before 18 but don't quote me. She is getting paid a few hrs to help him cook, clean, etc.. though she does it.

He's the most serous they come, a developmentally disabled psychopath. Hopefully he won't live up to this title and medicine will pay a huge part of that
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Old Yesterday, 12:39 PM
 
387 posts, read 185,050 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalFox. View Post
He's smart enough to know he's with other retards so should be in a vocational rehab program during the day when he turns 18, with non retards. he's more in line with schizo's who are various levels. Many are very smart, normal college educated, formerly happily married who had breakdowns or developed schizophrenia.
When he was younger, before I saw the deviance and just thought he needed structure, I cheerfully offered up examples of the many cashiers with Down's in our community. Many live in our village, walk to/from work, and are largely independent in the day to day. It's a safe place; no one hassles them. They have their own apartments among regular people, go to work, walk their errands, plant their annuals in the spring, grill, have family and/or friends over, etc. My mother remarked on how sad it was that they lived alone. She completely disregarded my point- their independence and pride. NO ONE with a coupon a single day after the expiration was going to get past them. They made friends of their neighbors. They helped them out when they could and were helped in return. They're very happy.

She focused on how the alone-ness. But living alone doesn't mean loneliness... unless you're her. She said that she couldn't imagine her poor son in such a sad life.

eta: He stops when he sees the phone come out. "You're gonna show Mom?!!" Then goes into his fake persona. Even for happy family pictures, he stops looking normal and lets his tongue fall out. It's ridiculous. I could film him secretly, maybe... but it's not worth it. I'd still be the bad oldest sister who doesn't KNOW HIM like they do, trying to catch the poor boy being an a-hole. I've told them what I think. They know.
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM
 
Location: USA
1,010 posts, read 761,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
I'm not sure why the daughter gets the choice to refuse the meds, when she is terrorizing the family. IMO mom being guardian, caregiver and victim should get to choose. I would have a real problem if my kid was well enough to go to high school or college and hold a job but came home and tortured me, AND refused treatment to stabilize her moods. No way, that mom has my sympathies, I'd want to run away too.
That's the way I feel too. Wow!

I do think it's a fair point to make, that adolescence may be making her "worse," but this should not continue indefinitely.
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM
 
Location: NJ
10,061 posts, read 20,852,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrugalFox. View Post
She isn't required to take care of her forever but at 18, the girl likely cannot just move out immediately.
It may be another year to get it all organized.
Sounds as if Mom hasn't contacted the County for assistance with her daughter or they haven't assisted her well.
Or she's just at her wits end, very understandable. Clearly she is.

There are many avenues they could take, but let's stick with the most common

If the girl shows she is a danger to herself or others, she may receive Medicaid funds for an IHSS worker.
If it's really bad, she'll have what's known as "protective supervision". That is rare but usually reserved for the psychotic.
She may eventually be forced, via injection, by a court, to take her meds if outbursts result in police intervention.


More likely the solution is subsidized housing and an IHSS Worker stopping by the home to assist a few hrs a wk.
Her worker can be her Mom, paid to do this...since most parents stop in anyhow.
Autistics, psychotics, often need help with housekeeping, laundry, grocery lists/shopping, getting to and from, appointments, etc
And a County Psychiatrist prescribing medication. This is if she is stabilized on meds by then.

A group home with someone paid to oversee it might be another alternative.
Usually the overseer only works days for a few hrs but someone is always on call.
This is more expensive for taxpayers so would only occur if her behavior is pretty bad.
Usually after some police reports. Mental institution confinement

Again, an IHSS Worker is VERY common Or a parent can be paid min wage or close to it to be their kin's worker
Bus Passes are generally available for a discount to disabled where applicable

In Calif, the disabled receive about t $900 mo. Same as dirt poor elderly folks at age 65
Being away from Mom will usually stop the night time outbursts, or they will be reduced a lot
disabled are generally in the front line for subsidized housing.
Section 8 is the same thing but she'd take her voucher anywhere.

We have an autistic 28 yr old women on Section 8 just 1 mile away
We are friends with the family
She is living above her parents in a large room with a fridge, bathroom.
The grandparents own the building.
I hear them shouting sometimes
when I stop in to buy something (it's also a seasonal business).
It would be better she not live there,
she also graduated college, or attended for a while
Dad does great with her but he is deemed disabled too
On heavy psychotropic meds
Both parents have some level if mental issues
Dad also receives close to $900 a mo. which 30% goes to rent just like the daughter.
Rent goes to the grandparents who own their building

Signing her up for Section Voucher and subsidized apartments right at 18, is key
Remain her IHSS worker or get her an IHSS worker NOW
This allows the County to hear another voice of what is happening
Check out their States vocational rehab where she could hold a job, on some days, such as at GOODwill.
Sign her up for food pantry & food stamps at age 18.
Sign her up for a discounted landline or cell telephone thru lifeline at 18.
All this stuff the county should have someone helping with

If the daughter is truly on psychotropic meds, then maybe it's via the parents insurance
They need to get her evaluated by the COUNTY so she can get all the assists she needs.
They will automatically refer her to different programs
As a parent, she will be taking care of her forever but it's not full time nor will she have to live at home
maybe in between episodes, then moving her into another program, that is common

My parents filled in when my schizophrenic brother was kicked out of a few programs.
He lived there, not good, but only for 1-2 wk stints and only a few times out of decades of illness
My brother was also confined to a few different mental institutions when he went off his meds
And into some episode.
At one point, after he threatened to kill the Sheriff
Who always enjoyed sitting at the coffee house with a bunch of women before work
he was court ordered to take his meds via injection. That got the ball rolling fast
No shows for injections meant the cops took him

This girl needs to get her mental state in order before attending College.
There is really no assists for her to attend College unless it's in some special program for the disabled
Psychotropic meds are often a deterrent to the County to encourage College
Mom can assist with taking her down and signing her up.
This will help her self esteem which = better behavior and a happier quality of life
but only after these episodes are under control and meds are stabilized
She is disabled so her classes will be free but there will be a lot of paperwork to fill out.

.
NJ says they dont give anything for autism any more according to my friend who could have written that about her son 7 years ago. He struggles to keep a job. Isnt responsible at all. Has crashed every car she owns. I told her to look for services they told her no.
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Old Yesterday, 02:17 PM
 
Location: NJ
10,061 posts, read 20,852,204 times
Reputation: 7687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarallel View Post
This is something that never gets discussed much. Once upon a time, children who were "handicapped" or "disabled" tended to be institutionalized. Nowadays parents are expected to care for them no matter how it damages the family.

May I Cut My Daughter Out of My Life?
By Kwame Anthony Appiah

I am the parent of a high school student with multiple issues... Nearly two decades of this has battered our marriage and careers... Having lost the middle chunk of my life to chaos and misery, am I really condemned to live this way until I die?

For the whole Q&A:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/m...f-my-life.html
She won't use medications for her anger but i bet she won't have a problem turning to drugs if she hasn't already unless the parents keep tabs on her money. I know many people who have been there and done that, some have buried their kids due to it.

Hopefully once teen hormones are done she will calm down. There can be many things wrong with her that aren't diagnosed. There are some kids with Chiari Malformation that have anger issues and symptoms that mimic autism that could clear up with surgery.

I think the advice that was given in the article sucked. Too bad the parent didnt come here for help
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