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Old Yesterday, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Continental Europe
915 posts, read 178,945 times
Reputation: 1441

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post

In a nutshell, a lot of people are outraged when individuals choose not to stay within the social niche that the conformity scolds and the lecturing finger-waggers demand they stay. And they know that unless children are specifically taught to share this outrage and the demand for conformity, they will accept individuals for who they are.
Nah, I don't care about breaking out of gender roles (in fact, I think that's absolutely fine.) Mary Cheney said it best:

"Why is it socially acceptable—as a form of entertainment—for men to put on dresses, make up and high heels and act out every offensive stereotype of women (bitchy, catty, dumb, slutty, etc.)—but it is not socially acceptable—as a form of entertainment—for a white person to put on blackface and act out offensive stereotypes of African Americans? Shouldn’t both be OK or neither? Why does society treat these activities differently?"
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Old Yesterday, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
44,141 posts, read 42,684,416 times
Reputation: 85323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly1983 View Post
Nah, I don't care about breaking out of gender roles (in fact, I think that's absolutely fine.) Mary Cheney said it best:

"Why is it socially acceptable—as a form of entertainment—for men to put on dresses, make up and high heels and act out every offensive stereotype of women (bitchy, catty, dumb, slutty, etc.)—but it is not socially acceptable—as a form of entertainment—for a white person to put on blackface and act out offensive stereotypes of African Americans? Shouldn’t both be OK or neither? Why does society treat these activities differently?"
Because the difference here is that blackface was traditionally performed by whites in a position of power.

Sure, drag is not always flattering to women, but it's performed by a traditionally disenfranchised group that is still subject to suppression. Dressing in drag isn't an act of privilege.

This topic hijacks the thread, but it has to be addressed. Drag is not even close to comparable to blackface.
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Old Yesterday, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Texas from Maryland
31 posts, read 2,881 times
Reputation: 29
As long as they are friendly and act decent towards my kids, i wouldn't mind. But you know how kids are; they'd probably ask questions like why are you wearing a dress ....
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Old Yesterday, 11:49 AM
 
624 posts, read 1,009,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Loud View Post
Absolutely not. There is just something mentally disturbing by grown men in dresses mocking women around little kids. A big nope.
That's a good reason not to go to church too.
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Old Yesterday, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Continental Europe
915 posts, read 178,945 times
Reputation: 1441
Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdieBelle View Post
Because the difference here is that blackface was traditionally performed by whites in a position of power.

Sure, drag is not always flattering to women, but it's performed by a traditionally disenfranchised group that is still subject to suppression. Dressing in drag isn't an act of privilege.

This topic hijacks the thread, but it has to be addressed. Drag is not even close to comparable to blackface.
You might need to re-think your comment? Women are the group that has been traditionally disenfranchised and still subject to oppression in certain areas of the world. I'm sure you know that disenfranchised literally means, without the vote (women only got the vote relatively recently in history. My mother couldn't open a credit card or a bank account without my dad or her father's permission and this was the 1970s.)

Men in dresses have always been able to vote and open credit cards and bank accounts. They have so much power they are now in a position where they can act out their sexual fetish* in front of children, and hardly anyone bats an eyelid. I do think this is a case of being so open-minded your brains fall out. Nothing wrong with the fetish but do it among consenting adults. Why involve children?

*That fetish would be auto-gynephilia, which is theorized to be the motivation for cross-dressing among men.

Last edited by Carly1983; Yesterday at 12:12 PM.. Reason: link added
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Old Yesterday, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
44,141 posts, read 42,684,416 times
Reputation: 85323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly1983 View Post
You might need to re-think your comment? Women are the group that has been traditionally disenfranchised and still subject to oppression in certain areas of the world. I'm sure you know that disenfranchised literally means, without the vote (women only got the vote relatively recently in history. My mother couldn't open a credit card or a bank account without my dad or her father's permission and this was the 1970s.)

Men in dresses have always been able to vote and open credit cards and bank accounts. They have so much power they are now in a position where they can act out their sexual fetish* in front of children, and hardly anyone bats an eyelid. I do think this is a case of being so open-minded your brains fall out. Nothing wrong with the fetish but do it among consenting adults. Why involve children?
My brains are right where they need to be, thanks.

Bringing blackface into this is nothing more than misapplied noblesse oblige.
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Old Yesterday, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Continental Europe
915 posts, read 178,945 times
Reputation: 1441
Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdieBelle View Post
My brains are right where they need to be, thanks.

Bringing blackface into this is nothing more than misapplied noblesse oblige.
I think the blackface analogy Mary Cheney came up with is perfect. A privileged group (men) imitating a traditionally oppressed one (women)....no-one can argue that women have historically been more privileged than men or that their representations of women are not stereotypically offensive. On top of that, cross dressing is well known to be motivated by a paraphilia which is quite frankly creepy when you involve children.

If I had children, I would definitely be keeping them away in the same way I wouldn't take my kids to a BDSM convention or a Pride march with people wearing sexually explicit leather costumes.
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Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Brentwood, Tennessee
44,141 posts, read 42,684,416 times
Reputation: 85323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly1983 View Post
I think the blackface analogy Mary Cheney came up with is perfect. A privileged group (men) imitating a traditionally oppressed one (women)....no-one can argue that women have historically been more privileged than men or that their representations of women are not stereotypically offensive. On top of that, cross dressing is well known to be motivated by a paraphilia which is quite frankly creepy when you involve children.

If I had children, I would definitely be keeping them away in the same way I wouldn't take my kids to a BDSM convention or a Pride march with lots of people wearing sexually explicit leather costumes.
You (and Mary) are showing a real lack of understanding of blackface as a cultural phenomenon. It was FAR more prevalent in mainstream society for decades than drag is. This is derailing this thread.

It's your choice not to take your (hypothetical) kids. I would make the same choice. It doesn't make blackface relevant here.
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Old Yesterday, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
32,439 posts, read 20,428,187 times
Reputation: 46749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly1983 View Post
I think the blackface analogy Mary Cheney came up with is perfect. A privileged group (men) imitating a traditionally oppressed one (women)....no-one can argue that women have historically been more privileged than men or that their representations of women are not stereotypically offensive. On top of that, cross dressing is well known to be motivated by a paraphilia which is quite frankly creepy when you involve children.

If I had children, I would definitely be keeping them away in the same way I wouldn't take my kids to a BDSM convention or a Pride march with people wearing sexually explicit leather costumes.

I think the analogy rings hollow. If men who cross dressed had kept women as slaves historically, THEN it would be offensive.
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Old Yesterday, 12:58 PM
 
624 posts, read 1,009,028 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carly1983 View Post
Nothing wrong with the fetish but do it among consenting adults. Why involve children?

So first you said it was unacceptable (via quote) because it was mockery of women, now you are saying it is okay as long as it is among adults because you think it is something sexual? It's neither of those, it's an artform from when non-straight men could not express themselves openly without getting locked up.


It's essentially performance art, people dressing up and acting. It's a lot better than someone dressing as a giant mouse and feeding them bad pizza to entertain kids.
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