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Old 02-13-2009, 11:39 AM
 
3,088 posts, read 5,576,355 times
Reputation: 1942
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy night View Post
Why should she not be held responsible? She was advised to terminate some of those fetuses in the first three months.

She made choices an awful lot of people are paying for. Seems to me that she is who should be held accountable. Period. No one else.
Oh I agree she should but the Dr. should as well. He breached ethical standards that no other doctor would.

The convo about aborting the fetuses if there are multiples should have happened before the embryos were implanted not after.

He is the same doctor she used a bunch of times. He knows her situation. He knew she had six kids already that she couldn't take care of.

And why did he not recommend a psych evaluation before the first kid arrived 7 years ago? Normally for these types of things there should have been a psych evaluation.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Texas
13,993 posts, read 7,298,013 times
Reputation: 3320
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitokenshi View Post
Oh I agree she should but the Dr. should as well. He breached ethical standards that no other doctor would.

The convo about aborting the fetuses if there are multiples should have happened before the embryos were implanted not after.

He is the same doctor she used a bunch of times. He knows her situation. He knew she had six kids already that she couldn't take care of.

And why did he not recommend a psych evaluation before the first kid arrived 7 years ago? Normally for these types of things there should have been a psych evaluation.
Breaching ETHICAL standards related to the practice of MEDICINE should result in sanctions taken against his medical license, but not being required to pay child support.

As far as "he knew she had six kids already that she couldn't take care of", I don't believe that should be a part of a doctor's consideration when performing a medical procedure. This doctor SHOULD get in trouble, but ONLY for violating the medical guidelines. As far as a psych evaluation, he should also be punished for not requesting that.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:52 AM
 
1,986 posts, read 2,328,601 times
Reputation: 1249
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
Breaching ETHICAL standards related to the practice of MEDICINE should result in sanctions taken against his medical license, but not being required to pay child support.

As far as "he knew she had six kids already that she couldn't take care of", I don't believe that should be a part of a doctor's consideration when performing a medical procedure. This doctor SHOULD get in trouble, but ONLY for violating the medical guidelines. As far as a psych evaluation, he should also be punished for not requesting that.
I agree with you completely.

It's ridiculous even harboring the thought of the doctor being liable for child support. He should be bound by law to limit the amount of embryos, but be held responsible for child support? There is no law in this land that would even come close to requiring that.

Why are some women having such a hard time holding other women accountable for actions such as these? That woman calculated this whole mess. The doctor did what he was paid for, maybe out of bounds, but it WAS what she paid him for. You don't hear her condemning him for his actions. She's quite pleased with the results.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:58 AM
 
Location: THE USA
3,254 posts, read 3,306,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy night View Post
I agree with you completely.

It's ridiculous even harboring the thought of the doctor being liable for child support. He should be bound by law to limit the amount of embryos, but be held responsible for child support?
I personally was not talking about child support from the doctor. He is not the father.

I was talking about kaiser suing him for medical malpractice or something or the state fining him a BIG FAT FINE for disregarding the guidelines and using that money to pay for the hospital care.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:01 PM
 
1,986 posts, read 2,328,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taboo2 View Post
I personally was not talking about child support from the doctor. He is not the father.

I was talking about kaiser suing him for medical malpractice or something or the state fining him a BIG FAT FINE for disregarding the guidelines and using that money to pay for the hospital care.
Why, because SHE was stupid???
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:03 PM
 
1,986 posts, read 2,328,601 times
Reputation: 1249
Quote:
Originally Posted by nitokenshi View Post
oh i agree she should but the dr. Should as well. He breached ethical standards that no other doctor would.

The convo about aborting the fetuses if there are multiples should have happened before the embryos were implanted not after.

He is the same doctor she used a bunch of times. He knows her situation. He knew she had six kids already that she couldn't take care of.

And why did he not recommend a psych evaluation before the first kid arrived 7 years ago? Normally for these types of things there should have been a psych evaluation.
Why not just lay the blame where it belongs. With Suleman!!!!!!!!!!!
This is meant to be in caps, but won't go up that way.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:06 PM
 
3,067 posts, read 5,529,036 times
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It is possible to produce 45+ eggs during one IVF cycle - but it's very dangerous - it's over hyperstimulation that lands many women in the hospital in severe pain. In serious cases, it can cause death.

I don't even know what to believe anymore. Based on what she says she's spent (~100k) in fertility treatments, I'd guess she did a few IUI's, one IVF cycle & 6 frozen cycles - the last one resulting in the octuplet pregnancy. I was finding it hard to believe at first that she could have transferred 5-6 embryos at a time per cycle but it's plausible if she produced the 45+ to begin with. But honestly - who knows with this woman?

As far as the RE, I don't think he broke any laws - there really aren't any laws on the books regarding IVF transfers.

However, he veered way off course when it comes to the medical (and some would say ethical) guidelines as set forth by ASRM. In addition to counseling her on the high probability of an HOM pregnancy and selective reduction, he should have sent her to an infertility therapist (yes - they are out there) to discuss WHY she felt a need to do more IVF cycles considering her circumstances. RE's do that - they recommend infertility therapists & expect a report before proceeding with procedures outside of the "norm". But you would have to have a reputable, responsible & ethical RE and I don't think Dr. Kamrava is that kind of doctor.

Should he be held accountable? On some level, yes and I believe he will be held accountable by ASRM & SART. I hope his license to practice medicine is revoked. But as some have expressed here, he is probably as narcissistic, greedy and unstable as his patient. It took a lot of cajones for him to go on the news in LA back in 2006 touting his "embryo implantation" technique that is known NOT to work. The fact that his website still "advertises" it so really disgusting and low. Such a crock of sh&t that he's selling this to his patients.

It wouldn't surprise me if Kamrava & Angelina-Jolie-Wanna-Be conspired for her to become the first woman pregnant 7 times with 7 IVF children - the makings for extreme media coverage...the makings for a TV reality show & notoriety & pocket-lining for them both! The extra babies are probably a bonus in their minds.

The bottom line is that Ms. Sulema made very poor choices. She had YEARS to think about each cycle & the implications of bringing a new baby into the fold but she didn't look past her whims or take the well-being of her children into consideration. Those children will end up suffering because her choices and she's shown nothing so far that would indicate that she has the ability, mental stability or financial responsibility to make future good decisions as a parent.

Last edited by Sampaguita; 02-13-2009 at 12:15 PM..
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Texas
13,993 posts, read 7,298,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taboo2 View Post
I personally was not talking about child support from the doctor. He is not the father.

I was talking about kaiser suing him for medical malpractice or something or the state fining him a BIG FAT FINE for disregarding the guidelines and using that money to pay for the hospital care.
There needs to be a law created that says no more than 2 embryos can be implanted EVER regardless of whether the mother can financially support a litter of children. In that case, a "big fat fine" would be an appropriate punishment for violating it IN ADDITION to actions taken against the doctor's medical license.

However, there is no law right now that makes it illegal so no fine can be imposed when there is no statute calling for one. A medical malpractice lawsuit? Maybe. Actually, I don't know if a medical malpractice lawsuit could be filed in this case because that usually involves a patient suing because he/she was victimized by a doctor performing some procedure improperly.

Right now the only thing that could be done (other than the lawsuit PERHAPS) could be suspending or revoking his medical license or the licensing board imposing some other type of discipline because this is an ethical violation, not a crime. However, even if a law was passed later, it could not be retroactively enforced - it could only apply to any doctor who did this in the future.

Last edited by afoigrokerkok; 02-13-2009 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:16 PM
 
Location: THE USA
3,254 posts, read 3,306,566 times
Reputation: 1938
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormy night View Post
Why, because SHE was stupid???
Because she had a partner in this crime and he supposedly took an oath to DO NO HARM.

She didn't get knocked up herself. THis wasn't even a fertility pill issue. He intentionally implanted this woman with an obnoxious amount of embryos that compromised her life and the embryos lives.

IT is not different than if i go to the doctor and ask for yet another uneccessary surgical procedure and i was not fit to have (pyschologically or healthwise).

There is some accountablility within the medical community for doctors to not operate if the patients health would be at risk during or after the surgery.

For example, if you need a new knee and you were obese and you did not meet the standards (lets say bad heart, or kidneys were not in great shape), you would not be able to have the surgery because of the risks. NO matter how BADLY you want and NEED a new knee, if it puts your LIFE at risk they are not supposed to do it.

Well, implanting 8 embryos put her life at risk. She did not sign a waiver stating she would get rid of half if they all took. That is part of the doctors job to make sure that just because you WANT something, if it endangers your life, it won't be done.

Last edited by Taboo2; 02-13-2009 at 12:24 PM..
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Texas
13,993 posts, read 7,298,013 times
Reputation: 3320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taboo2 View Post
Because she had a partner in this crime and he supposedly took an oath to DO NO HARM.

She didn't get knocked up herself. THis wasn't even a fertility pill issue. He intentionally implanted this woman with an obnoxious amount of embryos that compromised her life and the embryos lives.

IT is not different than if i go to the doctor and ask for yet another uneccessary surgical procedure and i was not fit to have (pyschologically or healthwise).
For example, if you need a new knee and you were obese and you did not meet the standards, you would not be able to have the surgery because of the risks. NO matter how BADLY you want and NEED a new knee, if it puts your LIFE at risk they are not supposed to do it.

There is some accountablility within the medical community for doctors to not operate if the patients health would be at risk during or after the surgery.

For example, if you need a new knee and you were obese and you did not meet the standards (lets say bad heart, or kidneys were not in great shape), you would not be able to have the surgery because of the risks. NO matter how BADLY you want and NEED a new knee, if it puts your LIFE at risk they are not supposed to do it.

Well, implanting 8 embryos put her life at risk. She did not sign a waiver stating she would get rid of half if they all took. That is part of the doctors job to make sure that just because you WANT something, if it endangers your life, it won't be done.
Which is why SHE would have the right to sue if something went wrong AND this is also why the medical board has every right to do something to his license.

It has nothing to do with her financial situation or her supporting the children.....that is a separate issue that is ALL ON HER.
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