how old is too old for spanking? (orphaned, schools, rates)

[Size18]

Last spanking I administered was on my youngest who was around age 7 at the time. It was a, I mean business spanking, and he's never forgotten it.

[presnallgregor]

Back in the 60's in our rural area guys got paddled/switched thru high school. it was not unusual to see a guy's bare butt after football practice that showed he got padded at home. My dad and I got along great and we worked on the farm very well together so we were close but even thru high school every once in a while he had to paddle my bare butt for something serious such as verbally disrespecting my mom--If i had disrespected her I really felt bad right away so I actually felt i should take a bare paddling so there was no anger when my dad had to paddle my bare butt----No one was more contrite than I was....So while I am not pro spanking i will admit ours was a very good family life even when I had to get paddled in high school yrs-- I am sure ours was a rare exception--as re: a bare paddling from dad--it was my experience PS iT HURT ON MY NAKED BUTT!@

[annabanana123]

0. Spanking is never a good idea. But if you do 15 is WAY too old. 8 is borderline.

[gt87]

Kid is never to old to get popped across the mouth for talking back. Just gotta make sure you can take them down when they're old enough to fight back.

[AcresHomes44]

I grew up with old-school black parents who were big on spankings. I only got spankings when I deserved it, which was seldom because I was well behaved. All my parents had to do was give me the look and that reeled me right on in.

[CGab]

Originally Posted by Pitt Chick

at birth

Agreed!!

[Sonic_Spork]

Setting aside the question (respectfully) of whether spankings are completely wrong or not...

My OPINION was that the only time with my sons that it made a sort of sense to do, was when they were old enough to not be babies, but too young to reason with. They are running around with a potential to get into the kind of trouble that can harm themselves or others, but I cannot yet sit them down and explain reasonably why they shouldn't do a thing.

The "running in the street" example... When I tried to tell my younger son around 3 or 4 years old, that a car would hit him and squish him like a bug or whatever, he said, "No, I run faster than cars." That totally made sense to him at the time. But he knew he'd been swatted on the bottom and that was very upsetting and unpleasant so saying, "Do you need a spanking?" would get his attention the way that the prospect of being hit by a car just didn't!

There were times in that very narrow age range, where the child is seemingly trying to see if they can seize power and defy the parent, do whatever they want simply for the rush of doing it. And as the parent I needed my kid to rein it in and be under control, to hit a sort of "reset switch" on the wild animal mentality they are in.

However, by (I would guess, my memory is a little hazy, my sons are 17 and 20 now) about age 5 or so, they had aged out of the maximum effectiveness range of that. I didn't want to be raising kids through that phase of childhood who were obedient out of fear, because when you do that, you have to constantly escalate your threats to keep them effective. About the time they realize that "Yeah, a swat on my bottom hurt, but I didn't die" they get resentful and decide they can take it, you wind up stepping up the violence to something that puts the fear of Mom/Dad into them again...and I didn't want anything to do with that kind of an arms race. Nope. That way lies abuse, and I am not down.

What worked better at that point, was privilege restriction, reward based behavior modification, and especially as they grew older, explaining and talking so that they would understand, my rules aren't just arbitrary posturing, there are REASONS for them. I didn't want kids who respected or obeyed out of fear or my "rank" as the boss of them...I wanted to deserve their respect. As they've gone through their teen years, sometimes this means telling them, "OK look, you are going to really regret what you're doing. Here is why. I know you're going to do it anyways, and I'm not going to fight to stop you, but listen to my words, and when it's all said and done, remember who gave you wise advice." Taking that approach, and letting them fail sometimes, has helped them to learn, and to know who to ask and when to listen. You never get that from just hitting somebody.

[KimNChicago]

Originally Posted by rockinmomma

...I personally feel that spanking is ineffective at this age... quite honestly ineffective past kindregarden or first grade.

First, I want to say that I am sorry you are facing disciplinary challenges, the most difficult part of our job for any parent.

I too am a parent, of three children, all of whom have presented many different disciplinary challenges. I am also a former public school teacher, though I teach at the post-secondary level now.

I want to offer an alternative, what I used with all three of my children (oldest out of college now) and what I used as a public school teacher, but you must be willing to control YOUR anger.

Please consider getting a copy of Dr. Phelan's 1-2-3 Magic. Different editions focus on specific age groups, and I believe some of the techniques are listed online if you google that title. These techniques allow parents to use AND teach conflict resolution strategies, rather than violence, for disputes.

Best of luck!

[nana053]

Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork

Setting aside the question (respectfully) of whether spankings are completely wrong or not...

My OPINION was that the only time with my sons that it made a sort of sense to do, was when they were old enough to not be babies, but too young to reason with. They are running around with a potential to get into the kind of trouble that can harm themselves or others, but I cannot yet sit them down and explain reasonably why they shouldn't do a thing.

The "running in the street" example... When I tried to tell my younger son around 3 or 4 years old, that a car would hit him and squish him like a bug or whatever, he said, "No, I run faster than cars." That totally made sense to him at the time. But he knew he'd been swatted on the bottom and that was very upsetting and unpleasant so saying, "Do you need a spanking?" would get his attention the way that the prospect of being hit by a car just didn't!

Yes, but... spanking does not actually prevent running into the street with children that age. Rewards for NOT doing so work better. There was a study done in the 1980s that showed this. They just do it when parents are not around if you spank or nag. I can't find the quote now though.

At any rate, I believe in positive discipline not spanking

Positive Parenting and Teaching

The idea of these methods is to be proactive and not reactive, to empower the child to control his own behavior rather than to control his behavior yourself, to see the child's individual needs and abilities rather than to use some general techniques to adapt these things to particular situations using the basic principle of respect for the child's feelings and human rights.

Part of this is simply a change in the way you speak to your child and in the attitude that you show toward him when you *really* look at him and listen to him carefully.

Mostly, this boils down to LISTEN to your child and RESPECT her unique needs and feelings.

First, model the behavior you want your child to emulate. Children learn what they live. Teach by example, not words. If you want your child to eat his vegetables, eat them yourself and don’t keep the food you wish him to avoid in the house for yourself and others in the family. When you do use words, encourage him with specifics when he does something good. I see you ate all your broccoli is better than you are a good eater or you are a good boy. General praise is not as effective as simply noticing what he did.

Second, always try to look for the underlying cause of the behavior and address that so that the need is actually met in acceptable ways. Assume your child is *good* even when her behavior doesn't meet your standards. Accept her feelings and show that you understand. Allow her to talk about them. Listen to her and respect her feelings and she will learn to respect the feelings of others.

Third, state your rules and requests in positive ways, not negative ones - Please walk is always more effective than don't run. Have the least number of rules possible. Don't micromanage your child's life. Make your point with humor. It helps to make some things that must be done a silly game instead of being serious. "Can you pick up the toys with your feet?" might be a way to get a child to have fun cleaning up. Remember the Whistle While You Work philosophy. Do things together instead of having her work alone. Rules should apply to all members of the household and should be for safety and for the sake of kindness to one another. Keep the number of "nos" to a minimum.

Fourth, explain on the child's level exactly what you want done again in positive terms - state what he can do, not what he can't do. Get down on the child's level and look at him when you explain. You may want to touch his arm to get his attention or to create a nonverbal signal that works to calm him down.

Fifth, redirect a child who is doing something that you dislike to something he *can* do now instead of what he is doing. Give the child choices between many things that are acceptable to you and she won't have to find something that is unacceptable so that she can have control. Whenever possible, let the child decide on what he should do even if the choice she makes is different from what you think is the *best* one. Children learn from making choices.

Sixth, give your child warnings of transitions so that they become easier to manage. Children need time to *finish* what they are doing. Persistence in doing a task is a virtue and should be encouraged. So try to allow them to finish what they start even when it is *just* a game.

Seventh, allow for down time when your emotions or the child's are out of control. This is not isolation, but it is a way to get anger under control. It is used non-punitively to allow both the adult and child to regain control of their emotions. Let the child control the amount of time she tays in a *time-out* like this. . Give her the control and she may put himself in *time-out* when she feels she needs it without your having to initiate this at all. Use it yourself too if your own emotions fly out of control. It's a great way to calm *yourself* down. Teach her to count to 10, to think before she reacts, by using these techniques yourself. Use breathing to breathe
out the anger too.

(Sidebar on teaching breathing here: When your child is calm teach him how to breathe out his anger. There are breathing games that you can play that work really well with toddlers and preschoolers and after you teach him how, you can remind him to breathe when he begins to tantrum.

These are breathing exercises we used with preschool classes:

Ballooning

When you balloon, you breathe in (deeply) and as you breath in you start with your arms at your sides and raise them up parallell to your shoulders and up over your head. Then you blow it all out, make it exaggerated like a balloon spewing out all the air. The kids really like it and it really lowers tension.

Draining

When you drain, you put both hands out in front of you, you twist (and twist, and twist and twist) your hands around like you were turning off water and you *********r face all up, then you blow the air out through your lips (I know... there will be a little spit!) but the kids really like that one and you can feel the stress and tension leaving your own body! (automatic stress relief!)

You can get the balloon and draining icons from:
http://www.beckybailey.com/documents/Icons.pdf

Eighth, say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't give a lot of warnings, give one and then act.

Ninth, plan for situations before they arise. Try to have some idea of what you will do so that you can stay calm and not react in anger. When you do need to change the child's behavior do so calmly and quickly. Pick up a young child and remove him from the situation or redirect him to some positive activity without yelling and without anger. Talk in a reasonable and normal tone of voice. Convey the message of love with your voice and your body.

Tenth, as your child grows, try to involve him in planning the rules that are necessary. Let him make some of the decisions within reasonable guidelines so that he begins to trust his own feelings about what is right and what is wrong. You can use role-playing and dramatic play to help your child figure out what he can do when situations come up that are difficult for him. Always involve him in solving the problem. Let him brainstorm different things he can do and then let him choose from the acceptable alternatives he comes up with.

Eleventh, make amends when you make a mistake. Apologize to your child when you have made a mistake. Accept his apologies gracefully as well. Encourage children to show they're sorry by taking responsibility for any harm they caused. They can get ice, look at the wound, say they're sorry, or do nothing-and live with whatever self-imposed guilt they might have. Don't force children to apologize. 'Sorry' is a word people can say insincerely to erase their responsibility and guilt.

Twelfth, give your child responsibility for real tasks that help make your family work. Chores help your child to feel she is a real part of
helping things run smoothly. Work out what chores she should do with her keeping them appropriate to her age and abilities, but allowing her to stretch. Don’t criticize her performance, let her improve gradually and be totally responsible for the chore. Don’t redo her work. Don’t tie chores to allowance in general. Allowances are better used to teach her to handle her own money responsibly. Extra money or rewards when she goes above and beyond the call of duty may be all right, but the idea of chores is to be responsible for helping your family work. Allowances (if you give them) should be something children get and are allowed to use in any way they wish although as they grow, they might be given responsibility to budget and pay for some things like their bus fare or school lunches. Still it should always be enough to cover the expenses and also to allow them their own spending money as well.

Children should experience the *natural consequences* of their actions, since that is how they learn. But making up logical consequences to substitute for natural ones often becomes a problem.

Cline and Fay (logical consequences parenting books) are worthwhile to read
http://www.loveandlogic.com/

This site has even better ideas. http://www.naturalchild.org/
or these http://www.empathicparenting.org/
http://www.flyingboy.com/relationships-parenting.htm
or this one for teachers http://www.marvinmarshall.com/

Some good resource books are:
How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish.

By the same authors:
How to Talk So Kids Will Learn
Liberated Parents, Liberated Children.
Siblings Without Rivalry.
How to Talk So Kids Will Learn

Happiest Toddler on the Block by Harvey Karp
How to Behave So Your Preschooler Will, Too by Sal Severe

For a Christian approach:
You Can Have A Family Where Everybody Wins by Rev. Earl Gaulke.
and
Positive Discipline in the Christian Home: Using the Bible to Develop Character and Strengthen Moral Values by Jane Ed.D. Nelsen

Cheryl Erwin, Michael L. Brock, Mary L. Hughes, Jane Nelsen

A General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis, MD and others is a good book on the brain research behind our emotions and why they are important especially for children.

A shorter version appears on Cathy Weeks parenting website:
http://www.ncf.ca/~an588/par_home.html

This post is copywrited by me. Please feel free to use, it by I would appreciate my name staying with it if you do use it.

Dorothy Sacks

Baby Center Positive Parenting board
http://bbs.babycenter.com/board/todd...r/7138?i=15#go

[dr.strangelove]

Originally Posted by rockinmomma

I am not trying to debate the whole spanking/not spanking delima. I am a parent that has spanked my son. He is 15 now and I haven"t popped his bottom since he was in early elementry school. The only time I ever spanked him was when he was when he was past the point of reason. IE: having a smart mouth after being warned he was working on getting a spanking, sitting on the edge of the road playing. I can count on one hand the number of times I've spanked him... always with my bare hand and two or three swats on the behind.

Here is my question: At what age should spanking stop?

My DSD who is 8 and isn't a behavior issue is being spanked in public by her momma. Her father hasn't popped her bottom in years, as she is one that responds to reason and other forms of dicipline ( loss of priviliges). I do not know the reason for the spanking. DSD is a very sensitive person who strives to please others (even to the point she gives up her own joys). It was just two years ago when the momma asked us how to dicipline the kids. We are the primary home and apparently she had no reason to dicipline (apparently of any kind... not even restricting playthings or early bedtimes) the kids until they were 6 and 10.

I personally feel that spanking is ineffective at this age... quite honestly ineffective past kindregarden or first grade.

for me it was birth. But I understand why some employ spanking. I just chose not to.