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Old 09-09-2011, 10:38 AM
 
Location: State of INSANITY
183 posts, read 208,225 times
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sooooo hitting our kids more will solve the lack of discipline problems of today ?? Don't buy it and never will. It's lack of discipline on PARENTS' parts that is the problem. If the parent is not self-disciplined, how can the child be?

 
Old 09-09-2011, 10:46 AM
 
4,044 posts, read 5,948,952 times
Reputation: 3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOMdotCOM2011 View Post
Nothing but NOTHING is "that simple". Parents who physically harm kids IMO lack imagination or means to cope with discipline problems by simply hitting them. There are ways to discipline kids without getting physical.
Yes, it is. Some things are immensely simple in their huge complexity.
You dare to accuse those parents of "lacking imagination" yet you don't understand zilch about what those parents often try to do before resorting to spanking, for how long, and with how much frustration.

The reason why many children today are inclined to disobey and to push their parents to the spanking edge is indeed an extremely complex issue that can only be correctly understood if you have the right historical perspective.

Despite popular opinion, fewer children begged for being spanked in the past as they do now. This is because they always felt slightly intimidated by the stature and the authority of the adults in the first place.
Back in those days, the images of "father", "mother", "grandparent", "teacher" carried way more weight, stature and authority in the eyes of the child than they do now - when these figures often act like buddies to the child.
Children felt slightly intimidated/awed by the adults in their life and that was a GOOD THING. In their presence, they were much less likely to let lose and ignore requests for obeying as they do now.

My parents NEVER spanked us - yet they had quite an authoritative, even authoritarian approach. When father was sleeping we knew that you'd better be able to hear a mosquito flying in the house!
We were simply intimidated by our parents' weight. There was virtually no need for spanking, pleading, coaxing or ANY OTHER highly imaginative approaches of the kind you suggest.

We were simply told what we could and could not do and we obeyed. We never got to let lose and thus beg for spanking in the first place. We had an imaginary straight-jacket that came from the authority our parents exuded. They were NOT our friends and they rarely tried to please us or coax us. They protected us, guided us, mentored us, taught us and expected us to show results. They also acted quite important in front of us. Believe it or not - this helps.

There was no "oh, honeeeeyyyy...would you like to do thiiiiiiiiiiis????" (insert high pitch, coaxy voice here).

Today Mom, Dad and Teacher are there to please CHILDREN and make them happy. Children are not there to please mom, dad and teacher.
BIG DIFFERENCE!

Children instinctively know they have the upper hand; and those kids who happen to be born with wilder, more rebellious proclivities will wreak havoc in this kind of "adults-are-here-to-please-you" environment.

Look around you: mom and dad have basically no adult life. Their life revolves around serving the kids. Most have come to convince themselves that this is the best way they could spend their free time anyway because they love "doing things as a family". They "have fun" at kid's soccer game, kid's ballet recital, kid's playground, kid's school, kid's field trip, kid's McDondalds, kid's pool party, kid's something.

Who needs a relaxing night with adult friends and uninterrupted adult conversation? Who needs to speak with a spouse about something else than kid-related stuff, away from the kid's ears?

As soon as people have children, they get buried in stale suburbs where any event that's ever happening is some kind of organized crap for the kids! Even if you don't believe in this kind of lifestyle you end up doing exactly the same as there is no one else to do anything different with.
It's all about THE KIDS!

Do you think they are not capable of sensing that?

By contrast, childhoods of the past often boiled down to: "go do homework in your room, when you're done play there quietly or outside; mom and dad now have guests/having an adult conversation". When the end of the semester came, the report card spoke for itself. If it didn't speak well - there was some sort of Hell to pay.

Note the difference between the "kid exists to please adults" atmosphere of the past and the "adults exist to please kid" atmosphere of today.

You also don't understand that a normal parent WILL NOT and SHOULD NOT have to go through a brilliantly imaginative epic of behavioral modification just to make the child comply. This is again New Age BS.

I have all the imagination in the world and then some but I refuse to do all sorts of imaginative acrobatics that take forever just to coax the child into obeying me - all while he continues to push his luck.
Some children will simply NOT comply unless they are afraid.

"Oh, so you just want your child to obey you out of fear??" ...goes the typical brilliant comeback.

Answer: YES!

My child, just like most others, often doesn't have the maturity to understand my motives and agree with them; so I would not expect him to obey based on reason. Sometimes they will, when they can grasp certain situations - but often times they won't.

Happily, my oldest is past the spanking stage and is a well-behaved, polite, good child with whom you can easily reason now.
He used to be a nightmare. He got spanked.
He emerged as a well-behaved child.
He is all whole, physically and mentally - and he loves us as much as we love him (that would be "to death").

What is most bothersome in this highly ridiculous debate is that PC parents will not find their rest until they shove down everybody's throat their idea of "what is the right type of discipline" for someone else's child.

I know you want to save the world and everything (I am already getting misty-eyed)... but if you have a well-behaved child who always obeyed without any need for physical punishment, fantastic for you! Count yourself lucky. Not "imaginative" - as it is nauseatingly self-congratulatory.

Better yet, abstain from judging those parents who have tried to control their children with all that New Age, often ineffective BS you advocate - and failed for pretty obvious reasons.

Their children are NOT like your children.
Stay out, very much out, of their business!
 
Old 09-09-2011, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Wherever life takes me.
5,944 posts, read 6,384,932 times
Reputation: 3018
Quote:
Originally Posted by MOMdotCOM2011 View Post
Since WHEN is beating a child with a belt "DISCIPLINE"? THE ones NEEDING the discipline are the PARENTS who DO THIS! I was beaten with a belt into my teens. ALL it taught me was to be very careful not to get "caught" and that I could not trust men for long time (my dad was the one who belted us). It also gave me a severe aversion to belts and in particular, belt buckles. Yea GREAT discipline. Tell your kids "don't hit others" but hit your kids? How on earth can anyone justify that? Do what I say, not what I do, much?
My mom used to always hit my face and my brothers dad always was chasing us to take the phone from us so we couldn't call the cops or to hit us.

Any sudden movements close to my face and I pull away.
I hate when people try and touch my face and I get uneasy if anyone is behind me.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,671,359 times
Reputation: 19409
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Yes, it is. Some things are immensely simple in their huge complexity.
You dare to accuse those parents of "lacking imagination" yet you don't understand zilch about what those parents often try to do before resorting to spanking, for how long, and with how much frustration.

The reason why many children today are inclined to disobey and to push their parents to the spanking edge is indeed an extremely complex issue that can only be correctly understood if you have the right historical perspective.

Despite popular opinion, fewer children begged for being spanked in the past as they do now. This is because they always felt slightly intimidated by the stature and the authority of the adults in the first place.
Back in those days, the images of "father", "mother", "grandparent", "teacher" carried way more weight, stature and authority in the eyes of the child than they do now - when these figures often act like buddies to the child.
Children felt slightly intimidated/awed by the adults in their life and that was a GOOD THING. In their presence, they were much less likely to let lose and ignore requests for obeying as they do now.

My parents NEVER spanked us - yet they had quite an authoritative, even authoritarian approach. When father was sleeping we knew that you'd better be able to hear a mosquito flying in the house!
We were simply intimidated by our parents' weight. There was virtually no need for spanking, pleading, coaxing or ANY OTHER highly imaginative approaches of the kind you suggest.

We were simply told what we could and could not do and we obeyed. We never got to let lose and thus beg for spanking in the first place. We had an imaginary straight-jacket that came from the authority our parents exuded. They were NOT our friends and they rarely tried to please us or coax us. They protected us, guided us, mentored us, taught us and expected us to show results. They also acted quite important in front of us. Believe it or not - this helps.

There was no "oh, honeeeeyyyy...would you like to do thiiiiiiiiiiis????" (insert high pitch, coaxy voice here).

Today Mom, Dad and Teacher are there to please CHILDREN and make them happy. Children are not there to please mom, dad and teacher.
BIG DIFFERENCE!

Children instinctively know they have the upper hand; and those kids who happen to be born with wilder, more rebellious proclivities will wreak havoc in this kind of "adults-are-here-to-please-you" environment.

Look around you: mom and dad have basically no adult life. Their life revolves around serving the kids. Most have come to convince themselves that this is the best way they could spend their free time anyway because they love "doing things as a family". They "have fun" at kid's soccer game, kid's ballet recital, kid's playground, kid's school, kid's field trip, kid's McDondalds, kid's pool party, kid's something.

Who needs a relaxing night with adult friends and uninterrupted adult conversation? Who needs to speak with a spouse about something else than kid-related stuff, away from the kid's ears?

As soon as people have children, they get buried in stale suburbs where any event that's ever happening is some kind of organized crap for the kids! Even if you don't believe in this kind of lifestyle you end up doing exactly the same as there is no one else to do anything different with.
It's all about THE KIDS!

Do you think they are not capable of sensing that?

By contrast, childhoods of the past often boiled down to: "go do homework in your room, when you're done play there quietly or outside; mom and dad now have guests/having an adult conversation". When the end of the semester came, the report card spoke for itself. If it didn't speak well - there was some sort of Hell to pay.

Note the difference between the "kid exists to please adults" atmosphere of the past and the "adults exist to please kid" atmosphere of today.

You also don't understand that a normal parent WILL NOT and SHOULD NOT have to go through a brilliantly imaginative epic of behavioral modification just to make the child comply. This is again New Age BS.

I have all the imagination in the world and then some but I refuse to do all sorts of imaginative acrobatics that take forever just to coax the child into obeying me - all while he continues to push his luck.
Some children will simply NOT comply unless they are afraid.

"Oh, so you just want your child to obey you out of fear??" ...goes the typical brilliant comeback.

Answer: YES!

My child, just like most others, often doesn't have the maturity to understand my motives and agree with them; so I would not expect him to obey based on reason. Sometimes they will, when they can grasp certain situations - but often times they won't.

Happily, my oldest is past the spanking stage and is a well-behaved, polite, good child with whom you can easily reason now.
He used to be a nightmare. He got spanked.
He emerged as a well-behaved child.
He is all whole, physically and mentally - and he loves us as much as we love him (that would be "to death").

What is most bothersome in this highly ridiculous debate is that PC parents will not find their rest until they shove down everybody's throat their idea of "what is the right type of discipline" for someone else's child.

I know you want to save the world and everything (I am already getting misty-eyed)... but if you have a well-behaved child who always obeyed without any need for physical punishment, fantastic for you! Count yourself lucky. Not "imaginative" - as it is nauseatingly self-congratulatory.

Better yet, abstain from judging those parents who have tried to control their children with all that New Age, often ineffective BS you advocate - and failed for pretty obvious reasons.

Their children are NOT like your children.
Stay out, very much out, of their business!
OMG....Why, why, WHY don't I can't I rep you again yet!!?? Yes....this post wraps everything up in a neat, little package that says it ALL.

The one child who required the most spankings and the most discipline was simply hard-headed and all consequences were WORTH getting to do exactly what he wanted to do. It's not as if I didn't try EVERYTHING before resorting to spanking. I was a (sometimes severely) spanked child. I never, ever wanted to hit my child...EVER. When he hit his teen years and early 20s, he tried to guilt us into feeling like we were just HARDER on him, or we just let things "slide" with the other kids, because they NEVER got into the kind of trouble that he got in to.

Guess what? The man hit about 25-26 years old and he'd spent a little more time around other families with kids and saw himself in some of those kids. He was the really GREAT choices his younger siblings were making with their lives. He woke UP and came to the full-fledged realization that it wasn't US who were "bad" or "screwed up"...he realized that it was HIM who was different. Everything about HIM was different than the other kids. It became painfully apparent to him that he wouldn't obey (because he didn't think he should HAVE to. He realized that he made terrible choices and that was what got him into the trouble he was always in.

The other kids didn't get in trouble, because they didn't disobey (well, occasionally, but they learned from their consequences). They did their homework and their chores, chose their friends wisely and got a whole lot more freedom and trust than he ever did. Some kids do NOT respond to discipline...ANY form of it. Some kids respond to a raised voice or a reprimand. Some kids simply have that innate sense of right vs wrong and rarely cross the lines.

I, too, resent the statements that those of us who resorted to spanking, lack imagination, self-discipline, or vital and appropriate parenting skills. If you were LUCKY enough to have children who simply obeyed without question, you were just that......LUCKY!

He
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,671,359 times
Reputation: 19409
Quote:
Originally Posted by txtqueen View Post
My mom used to always hit my face and my brothers dad always was chasing us to take the phone from us so we couldn't call the cops or to hit us.

Any sudden movements close to my face and I pull away.
I hate when people try and touch my face and I get uneasy if anyone is behind me.
And yet you continued to mouth off and be disrespectful..and you still live with your mother as an adult. Hmmmm somehow, I don't think she hit you too hard or often. Then again....like I said in my previous post, some children simply don't learn...simply fail to respond to ANY correction.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:13 AM
 
15,300 posts, read 16,854,240 times
Reputation: 15020
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post
If you were LUCKY enough to have children who simply obeyed without question, you were just that......LUCKY!
But, I didn't want children who obeyed without question anyway. I don't think most non-spanking parents think that obedience is the be-all and end-all.

The idea is to teach the child to become a self-disciplined adult who doesn't need to fear authority to act rightly.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,671,359 times
Reputation: 19409
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
But, I didn't want children who obeyed without question anyway. I don't think most non-spanking parents think that obedience is the be-all and end-all.

The idea is to teach the child to become a self-disciplined adult who doesn't need to fear authority to act rightly.
We are saying that some kids stray WAAAAAY outside the lines. We're not talking about little things here!! Some children do not and WILL not learn self-discipline withOUT fearing authority and consequences. I don't know what in the world is so difficult to understand about that. Lucky, lucky, lucky.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Wherever life takes me.
5,944 posts, read 6,384,932 times
Reputation: 3018
Quote:
Originally Posted by beachmel View Post


And yet you continued to mouth off and be disrespectful..and you still live with your mother as an adult. Hmmmm somehow, I don't think she hit you too hard or often. Then again....like I said in my previous post, some children simply don't learn...simply fail to respond to ANY correction.
Yeah because when I was 5 she left black and blue bruises on my butt and backs of my legs.
Or the time when she socked me across the face when we were visiting in Tennessee and she cut my cheek and busted my lip and made it bleed.
Or the time she punched me in the side of the head and I ended up with a concussion and on doses of meclizine because I was dizzy and vomiting.
Or the numerous times I have had various liquid substances sloshed in my face, soda, water, wine....the wine was the worst, that hurts when it gets into your eyes.
Or maybe the time when my brothers dad, spanked me so hard in the grocery store that I was knocked into a shelf. Just for taking my hands off the cart, AFTER I asked my mom if it was ok and she said yes.
Then there's the countless times ive been whacked across the face.

You're right she should have hit me harder and more often. Maybe I would be a better person to day if I had had a few more beatings.


I responded to being talked to and listened to, which my mom rarely did.
Any time I got into trouble was for having an attitude or not getting along with my brother but my mom never listened to what led up the events that happened, she just punished for whatever I did, instead of listening to what was wrong to make me act out or have an attitude.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 11:34 AM
 
11,230 posts, read 9,237,838 times
Reputation: 14654
Quote:
Originally Posted by syracusa View Post
Yes, it is. Some things are immensely simple in their huge complexity.
You dare to accuse those parents of "lacking imagination" yet you don't understand zilch about what those parents often try to do before resorting to spanking, for how long, and with how much frustration.
I am guessing that what these poor parents have been doing are just a bunch of things that are as misguided as spanking. EFFECTIVE options are discussed here:

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books

Amazon.com: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (9780380811960): Adele Faber, Elaine Mazlish: Books



Quote:
The reason why many children today are inclined to disobey and to push their parents to the spanking edge is indeed an extremely complex issue
No it isn't. Children behave the way we TEACH them to behave. If our teaching is ineffective at what we want to teach, then the "mis"behave. If you think of discipline as punishment, if they are one and the same in your mind, you have exactly ZERO chance of being an effective disciplinarian. You are simply going to need to escalate and escalate your punishment.

[quote
that can only be correctly understood if you have the right historical perspective.

Despite popular opinion, fewer children begged for being spanked in the past as they do now.
[/quote]
BEGGED to be spanked? No one every begs to be spanked.

Quote:
This is because they always felt slightly intimidated by the stature and the authority of the adults in the first place.
Yah they feared they would hit them. THAT is what I want from my teenager when faced with challenging issues. I want a history with him or her in which s/he is too afraid of me to come to me with their problems and get help. That is really great.

if you TEACH kids what is right, why it is right, how to solve problems, how to think for themselves, you don't need to instill fear in them. If you buttress that with effective limit setting that demonstrates you say what you mean and mean what you say by allowing them to feel the natural and logical consequences of their actions, they learn that there are REAL consequences to misbehavior. You actually don't have to make them up!



Quote:
Back in those days, the images of "father", "mother", "grandparent", "teacher" carried way more weight, stature and authority in the eyes of the child than they do now - when these figures often act like buddies to the child.
Children felt slightly intimidated/awed by the adults in their life and that was a GOOD THING. In their presence, they were much less likely to let lose and ignore requests for obeying as they do now.
What stops you from intimidating your children? I, personally, think it is a REALLY BAD idea. But why do you need the rest of society to be on board with this to intimidate your own kids?

Quote:
We were simply told what we could and could not do and we obeyed.
That might be where your lack of imagination comes from! When were you taught to think for yourself!

Being a bit more serious, what do kids learn by just being obedient? They learn how to do what someone else says. They MIGHT be the easy going type and continue to do what someone says when someone is not looking. Or they might just decide that if the only thing guiding their behavior is the authority figure, then there is not reason to behave right when the authority figure is not around.

My fear with the obedience model is... whom else are they going to chose to obey? If they don't have their own moral core, will they reject the request for obedience from peer pressure?

Quote:
There was no "oh, honeeeeyyyy...would you like to do thiiiiiiiiiiis????" (insert high pitch, coaxy voice here).
So you assume that the lack of fear, authoritarianism and hitting equates to having to beg your children?

You should read the books. But I am guessing you won't. In my opinion, adult children who were spanked and continue to spank fear most of all that disavowing spanking as a useful tool somehow is a critical reflection on their parents as well as an admission that there is something wrong with you.

The truth is we all screw up as parents. But it is worthwhile to minimize it to whatever degree we can.

Quote:
Today Mom, Dad and Teacher are there to please CHILDREN and make them happy. Children are not there to please mom, dad and teacher.
BIG DIFFERENCE!
We do? I don't. Sure I like my kids to have fun and enjoy themselves. But not at the expense of behavior. But those two things are not mutually exclusive.

The biggest problem with "today's parents" is that they have not learned what to replace authoritarianism WITH. Effective limit setting, engendering cooperation so you don't have to set limits, and gaining the genuine respect of your children is EASY once we unlearn bad habits of our own upbringings. And behavior after just comes, pure gravy.



Snip a bunch of stuff that equates not hitting with over permissiveness.
 
Old 09-09-2011, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Western Washington
8,004 posts, read 9,671,359 times
Reputation: 19409
Quote:
Originally Posted by txtqueen View Post
Yeah because when I was 5 she left black and blue bruises on my butt and backs of my legs.
Or the time when she socked me across the face when we were visiting in Tennessee and she cut my cheek and busted my lip and made it bleed.
Or the time she punched me in the side of the head and I ended up with a concussion and on doses of meclizine because I was dizzy and vomiting.
Or the numerous times I have had various liquid substances sloshed in my face, soda, water, wine....the wine was the worst, that hurts when it gets into your eyes.
Or maybe the time when my brothers dad, spanked me so hard in the grocery store that I was knocked into a shelf. Just for taking my hands off the cart, AFTER I asked my mom if it was ok and she said yes.
Then there's the countless times ive been whacked across the face.

You're right she should have hit me harder and more often. Maybe I would be a better person to day if I had had a few more beatings.


I responded to being talked to and listened to, which my mom rarely did.
Any time I got into trouble was for having an attitude or not getting along with my brother but my mom never listened to what led up the events that happened, she just punished for whatever I did, instead of listening to what was wrong to make me act out or have an attitude.

Sorry....so not gonna buy any of this BS. You continue to live with your mother. Most of us have seen far too much over-dramatization in your posts to take those accusations seriously....at least I have. Treating your mother with a complete lack of respect and then crying over the fact that she doesn't give you enough hugs, or listen and talk to you (when you're constantly complaining that she butts her nose into your business) sets you up to be less than believable. I refuse to get caught up in your drama. Lord knows I've got enough of my own to deal with...REAL issues.
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